SEPTEMBER 10, 2003

3:00 P.M.



MEMBERS PRESENT:                                   Don Williams, President; Phil Baxter, Vice-

                                                                        President; Don Ashley, Attorney for Board;

                                                                        Karan Barnhill, Surveyor and Rod Madden,

                                                                        Deputy Surveyor.


ALSO PRESENT:                                           Monte Williams and Richie Medcalf



President Williams brought the meeting to order.




President Williams stated the first order of business is the approval of minutes from August 13th and August 27th and asked Commissioner Baxter if he wanted to approve the minutes together or separately.


Commissioner Baxter answered he would take the minutes together and made a motion to approve the minutes of August 13th and August 27th, 2nd by President Williams. Motion carried 2-0.






The quotes were passed down to Mr. Ashley, Attorney for Board. The first one opened was from Jerry Aigner Construction, Inc. Mr. Ashley stated the proposal submitted for tree grinding removal and mowing on Cypress Creek in the amount of $9,200.00.


The second quote opened was from Bigge Excavating, for tree grinding removal and mowing of Cypress Creek and the quote is $2.75 per foot which extended is $20,075.0 for 7300 feet.


President Williams asked if there was a pre-bid meeting and were both gentlemen in attendance?


Karan answered that both contractors had been to the site with her staff.


Commissioner Baxter made a motion to accept the bid from Jerry Aigner in the amount of $9,200.00, 2nd by President Williams. Motion carried 2-0.






Karan stated that the flap gate structure has been purchased along with the pipe for the field entrance to control the flood waters of Cypress Creek. She wants to get a “not to exceed” dollar amount approved as her crew is going to do a lot of the work and utilize a contractor that will be on the site doing another job to put the structure in place. She added that she would like to get $13,601.00 not to exceed approved so that they can get the project underway.


President Williams asked Karan if she said $13,601.00.


Karan answered that she was going from the estimate from the Highway Department, she didn’t think she would need that much money.


President Williams stated this is a no more than and asked Mr. Baxter if he had any questions or comments on this issue?


Commissioner Baxter answered that he thinks it is a good project and made a motion to approve the request for a “ Not to exceed” $13,601.00, 2nd by President Williams for a flap gate structure and the work on Cypress Creek & Eskew Road for $13,601.00. Motion carries 2-0.






Karan stated this next item is a Hold Harmless Agreement for Chandler Natural Gas to cross Weinsheimer Ditch with a gas line which is being relocated because of the S.R. 62 project. She added that the way she understands it is that the Hold Harmless is not our standard Hold Harmless and Mr. Ashley has reviewed it and has comments to make. She explained  that it is a 4-inch proposed gas main that will be 6-feet below flow line and it is a directional bore and they will place markers on each side of the ditch.


President Williams asked Mr. Ashley, Attorney what the difference is in the Hold Harmless?


Mr. Ashley stated that no two Attorney’s will ever be able to agree upon the wording of a document based upon their own clients perspective. He added that this was hammered out as a result of negotiations between him and Mr. Braton, who is the Attorney for Chandler Natural Gas and also the Attorney from INDOT. Mr. Ashley’s problem was with Attorney Braton’s not being able to perceive that his company was not subject to any control by the Drainage Board in crossing the ditch. He also explained that has been resolved through the efforts of the Attorney from INDOT. He also stated that he has reviewed the Hold Harmless and he would recommend that it be accepted.


Commissioner Baxter asked Mr. Medcalf if he had anything to add. (Mr. Medcalf was representing Chandler Natural Gas).


Commissioner Baxter stated that on the advice of the Drainage Board Attorney he makes a motion to approve the Hold Harmless from Chandler Natural Gas, 2nd by President Williams. Motion carried 2-0.




Karan stated that this is the Hold Harmless that the Town of Newburgh was having trouble with and they took out the wording about maintenance of the debris on the line as Dr. Frudenberg is going to accept that responsibility. She also added that it has been signed and recorded and just needs approval from the Drainage Board.


President Williams asked Mr. Ashley if he had also looked at this Hold Harmless?


Mr. Ashley stated that he had looked at it previously and except for the wording about the maintenance of the debris he would also recommend that it be accepted.


Karan also stated that the wording is the exact same as was on the other Hold Harmless except for the wording about the debris removal.


Commissioner Baxter made a motion to approve the Hold Harmless from the Town of Newburgh, 2nd by President Williams. Motion carried 2-0.




President Williams stated the next item on the agenda are the claims for spray for grass in County ditches, Mulzer Rock for the Tennyson project and S & S Tree Service for a total of $7,486.72. He asked if there was any discussion or comments?


Commissioner Baxter answered no, then made a motion to approve the claims in the amount of $7,486.72, 2nd by President Williams. Motion carried 2-0.




Monte Williams who resides at 4122 Count Fleet Drive introduced himself to the Drainage Board and stated that his reason for coming to the meeting is because he received a phone call from his Engineer who told him that the Surveyor, Karan was going to refuse to sign the drainage permit so that he could get his building permit. He added that the reason is because he has not cleaned out a ditch to her satisfaction and he has been working on this building permit since 2001.


Mr. Monte Williams stated that Karan has had him make 5 different drainage plans and she did not approve any of them and she also demanded that he have a drainage plain for a property adjoining to where the building was going to be built. He said he did that and she still would not approve it and then she said that he had to have a drainage permit from the State. He added that he finally got an agreement from his new Engineer and the State to go along with the drainage plan that he has and now she said she wouldn’t sign the drainage permit that we have an agreement with the State on, which will further delay his construction of the building. He further stated that this delay has cost him more than $30,000.00 right now and if he doesn’t get his building built before January 1st of 2004 it will go up another $2,000.00 a month as he has stuff in storage that the State put there and his year will be out.


Monte stated that he doesn’t think the instructions on moving the ditch took into consideration the fact of the location of the easement of the ditch and the actual location of the ditch. He added that if he gets a specific plan that is clear and states specifically what’s to be done there he can do that, it won’t be a quick job but right now the ditch is not being obstructed with water flowing through it. He added that he complained about the ditch because his outflow drainage into the ditch, the invert is now 18 inches below the bottom of the ditch because it is silted up. He stated that they have come up with a plan that they will not use that ditch at all on the new drainage plan, but as far as realigning the ditch so that the outflow will not be impeded will not work. He doesn’t know what else to do, so he has contacted his lawyer today and he has a meeting Monday and he is considering filing suit. He stated that he doesn’t get any cooperation from Karan Barnhill and it has been quite expensive.


President Williams stated he would like to hear the Surveyor’s side.


Karan stated that first of all she has not refused to approve Mr. Williams drainage because she doesn’t approve the plans, the Drainage Board does. She added that she told his Engineer that since he is using that ditch as a discharge point for the retention basin, the ditch doesn’t drain now as the pipe going into the ditch would be obstructed by the flow and it wouldn’t discharge properly so until the ditch is cleaned out and flows properly he can’t use it as a discharge point for his retention basin. She explained that the ditch needs to be cleaned out and not obstructed so that his discharging into the ditch will not impede on the adjoining landowners. She added that the ditch now because of the excavation that he has done on his lot has pushed the ditch over onto their land, so therefore it would be impeding onto their private property if it’s not cleaned out properly.


Karan stated that the second thing is that she did not require him to go to INDOT, it was INDOT that required approval and until he got approval from them to discharge into the State right-of-way the Drainage Board could not approve his drainage plan because INDOT’S jurisdiction over rides the Counties. She explained that the plan that Mr. Williams stated she would not approve any of the five that he has turned in, she has only received 2 plans in her office. Karan stated the first one discharged into the road right-of-way of INDOT and INDOT was notified by the adjoining landowners not by Karan and INDOT notified Monte Williams that he needed to file a permit, you did not file the proper paperwork through them and that is what has been holding all of this up, not her.


Karan stated that when he brought in the Drainage Plan last week it met all of the criteria, she went to the site and saw that the ditch was being cleaned out. She further stated that when she returned yesterday to the site and he had just cleared the brush off of the bank but the ditch is still obstructed with large rocks, boulders and dirt and she also knows that part of it is not all his doing as Ray Stradtner has been dumping also. She added that she has also contacted the Highway Department about hauling in dirt and dumping it in the other lot as it is pushing over also. Karan stated that where Monte wants to discharge into the ditch is so obstructed it won’t drain out and she can’t recommend to the Drainage Board to approve a drainage plan that she doesn’t think will function properly and will cause an adjoining landowner problems. She also stated she does not have the authority to tell him he has to clean out the ditch as it is not a legal drain but it is an obstructed waterway that has been obstructed by someone. She further stated that where his discharge point from his retention basin is going to be an  needs to be unobstructed ditch so that the storm water will drain away.


Mr. Monte Williams stated that in the last drainage plan that was drawn up they were not using that ditch at all.


Karan stated that the new plan that was brought to her office shows the ditch being used as a discharge point for the basin, there is a pipe that is going directly into that ditch. She also added that his Engineer reiterated that point.


Mr. Williams brought the drawing up to the Drainage Board so he could show them even though it was not the right drawing, but he showed where it would drain to the retention pond.


Karan stated that it is going to be intercepted with a drain inlet and running it over into the basin with the basin going into the ditch.


Monte Williams stated it was not going into the ditch but into the right-of-way here and it will be adjacent to the ditch. He also showed where a swale should be on the plans.


Karan asked what swale he was talking about?


Monte Williams answered the swale would be on his property.


Karan stated that none of that is shown on the drainage plans that she received and is in her office. She state it does not show a swale or ditch or anything on his property all she sees is the water going into the ditch and the ditch is obstructed.


There was much discussion on the drainage plan as the one that Mr. Williams has brought to the meeting and the one that Karan has do not show what Mr. Williams is explaining to the Board.

President Williams stated that the only problem is the fact that the ditch is filled with debris?


Karan answered yes it is filled with everything.


Mr. Williams stated that the ditch is not on him, it would be on lots 4 & 6.


Karan answered that she does not know where the ditch was as there are no street plans for this that she can find so she doesn’t know where the swale used to be. She added that she did not know where the ditch originally was, but there was a drainage easement and she pulled the distance from the cul-de-sac back and put a stake there and he tore it out when he was digging the other day, that stake was an approximate property line which was right in the middle of the berm that he built up.


Mr. Williams stated he hasn’t found any berm.


Karan explained that where the property has been filled up it is higher now than what it used to be so she calls it a berm and now since it is over in the other peoples property it is making the ditch meander out of the easement.


There was much more discussion about where the ditch used to be.


Karan asked Mr. Williams to just clean the ditch out so that it will drain freely to their right-of-way and that is all she is asking Mr. Williams to do.


President Williams asked Monte Williams if he could do that?


Mr. Williams answered that he didn’t know if he could or not as there is a sewer in the middle of the ditch and he thinks that would also cause a blockage.


Karan again stated that she was not trying to keep Mr. Williams from getting his permit she just cannot recommend to the Drainage Board to approve a drainage plan that she knows is going to be obstructed when it leaves that pipe. She asked again if Mr. Williams could not just take his machinery out there and take a couple of scoops out of the ditch enough so that it will drain.


Mr. Williams stated he could do that he was just fearful of getting into the sewer line.


Karan explained to Mr. Williams that all he had to do is call the sewer company and they would come out there and mark where he should not dig and even stay there while you are digging.


President Williams stated that no one is opposed to his building but they are not going to approve a drainage plan that will not drain properly, so if he gets his plan drawn up properly it will be approved.


Karan told Mr. Williams that he could not have any of his storm water from his site leave his site without going to the basin so he must be sure that everything from his site goes to his basin.


Mr. Williams stated he couldn’t stand another delay as it would be costly.


Karan answered that all he had to do was get the work done, the plans submitted and it would be done in 2 weeks.


Mr. Williams asked what he had to do to the plans?


Karan answered that the plans that Andy Easley has submitted are fine except Mr. Williams needs to remove the high spots and clean out the ditch. She told Mr. Williams to call her when he finished the job and she would come out and inspect it.


President Williams asked if there was any other business.


Don Ashley, Attorney advised the Drainage Board that monies from the Cumulative Drain Fund could not be used on the MS-4 consulting fees.


President Williams stated that they would have to find another money source to fund

the consultant and he has no problem with that, he also stated this is what Mr. Ashley is to consult them on matters such as this.


President Williams asked if there was anything to come before the Board?


Commissioner Baxter made a motion to adjourn, 2nd by President Williams. Motion carried 2-0.