JANUARY 28, 2004

3:00 P.M.




PRESENT:                                                       PHILLIP H. BAXTER, PRESIDENT; CARL

                                                                        JAY CONNER, VICE-PRESIDENT; DON

                                                                        WILLIAMS, SECRETARY; DON ASHLEY,

                                                                        ATTORNEY FOR BOARD; KARAN BARNHILL,

                                                                        SURVEYOR AND ROD MADDEN, DEPUTY




ALSO PRESENT:                                           BRIAN MUNDY AND SHERRI PHILLIPS




President Baxter brought the meeting to order.




President Baxter stated the first order of business was the approval of minutes from January 14, 2004.


Commissioner Williams made the motion to approve the minutes from January 14, 2004, 2nd by Commissioner Conner. Motion carried 2-1. President Baxter abstained voting, as he was not present at this meeting.




Karan stated she would like to introduce Mr. Brian Mundy from WTH and that he has come to the meeting by her request to discuss acquiring new aerial photographs that will be of a better resolution and at a lower price. She added that she has requested an Additional Appropriation of funds from Cumulative Drain from the County Council, but she would also like to have the Drainage Board’s consent. She explained that Brian is going to show us the difference from what we now have in aerial photos and what we could have.


Mr. Brian Mundy introduced himself and stated that his company WTH is the mapping provider for Warrick County and also for 63 other counties in Indiana and if you are going to fly new aerial photography the time is usually in February and March. He added that they were getting some counties together in this area such as Posey and Gibson in that area so he contacted Karan as he knew the Drainage Board had purchased the last aerial photography and the prices had lowered extensively since their last purchase with the quality going up.

Mr. Mundy explained that his company does not do the actual flying, they partner with a company out of St. Louis called Image America and they use a digital camera opposed to film processing. He stated that he would show them on slides what the difference in quality will be.


Mr. Mundy showed the Board what the current aerial photography looks like showing Castle High School Track, he zoomed in on the track to show that the closer up you try to get the grainer the picture is. He changed slides and showed a picture of Indiana State University and their track, when he zoomed in you could see the numbers on the track. He explained that this shows the clarity of the picture. He explained that what Warrick County currently has is 6-inch resolution and what that means is each pixel on the screen when he zooms in to where it grains out, he showed how each square is 6-inches and he compared that with the ones taken with the digital camera how much clearer the aerials are. He went on to explain that clarity of the aerials is a very important issue.


Commissioner Williams stated that it seems like it should be clearer than that as a satellite can read license plates on a car.


Mr. Mundy answered that it can be done to that extreme, it is just a matter of cost as they can make it as small as 3-inch pixel. He added that there is just more work in processing also and that the main cost is not taking the picture but is the processing itself and what you order as to how it is processed at the lab.


Commissioner Conner asked if the proposal was to update all of the County and eliminate what we are presently using or are you talking about doing portions that we did not have done?


Karan answered that we had the whole County done before.


Commissioner Conner asked if it would be an upgrading of the whole County?


Mr. Mundy answered that it would be 3 quarters of the cost just to do an area of the County versus doing the whole County?


Commissioner Williams asked what the cost would be for the whole County?


Mr. Mundy answered that it would be $60,000.00.


Karan stated that 3 years ago the cost was $155,000.00.


Mr. Mundy stated that this cost would include brand new photography delivered and installed on all County computers and everyone that is currently on Think Map, any map realignment if something didn’t line up. He added the reason it seems so inexpensive is because the plane is already going to be in this area and flying over other counties.


Karan asked Mr. Mundy when it needed to be done to get this price?


He answered that the plane will be flying sometime in the middle of February until the end of March and it depends a lot on weather conditions as it needs to be cloud free, they have to also work with the angle of the sun so there won’t be any shadows.


Commissioner Williams asked what the express purpose of this would be?


Karan answered that it could be used for Legal Drains to update the plans and profiles, to show new developments. She added that Contractors, Engineers and all sorts of citizens come into the office wanting copies of aerials to see how things are laid out and this happens daily sometimes as many as 15 people a day. She explained that if they aren’t up to date the people aren’t getting what they are paying for.


Commissioner Conner asked if there was a charge for copies?


Karan answered it depends if you want it off of the computer or a blue line and the price is based on that because if they want it off the computer those have to go through the plotter and they are more expensive, we also plot what size they want so the price varies anywhere from $5.00 up to $25.00.


Commissioner Conner asked if that covers our direct expense of doing the copies?


Karan answered that is why we had to raise our prices to cover the expenses of the ink for the plotter.


Commissioner Conner asked Sherri Phillips from Area Plan Commission if her office could use the aerials?


Sherri answered yes, that new aerials would be very helpful to her office.


Commissioner Conner stated so there are other Departments that would utilize these aerials on a daily basis.


Karan also stated that the Sheriff’s Department would use it too.


Mr. Mundy explained that the Sheriff’s Department would use it for locating distances from a drug scene and other instances.


Commissioner Williams stated they would probably use it for 911 calls.


Mr. Mundy also stated that the Auditor’s Office uses it for parcel numbering and for house addresses. He added that he did not know if Warrick County Ambulances uses this or not.


Karan stated that basically almost every Department in the County would use it.


Sherri Phillips from APC stated that there have been 3,000 to 4,000 houses that have been build since the last aerials.

Commissioner Williams stated that is probably the most frustrating things to look for a development and all you see is field.


Deputy Surveyor Rod Madden stated that we also have Attorneys come in and research the aerials and they go back several years to the older aerials.


Mr. Ashley stated he has come to the Surveyors Office before to see aerials or to get copies.


Karan stated she thinks it would be a benefit to the whole County and it is such a good price comparing what they paid the last time.


Attorney Ashley asked who paid for it the last time?


Karan answered that it was appropriated out of Cumulative Drain Fund.


Commissioner Conner asked how much money was in Cumulative Drain Fund?


Karan answered there was $535,000.00 with $ 250,000.00 being appropriated, but Council would have to appropriate this money into an unappropriated line item.


Commissioner Conner asked Mr. Mundy if his firm was the only one to do this type of aerial photography?


Mr. Mundy answered there are other aerial photographers around, but since we provide the GIS the aerial photography is such an integral part of it, all of your maps is drawn to the photography. He added that his company partnered up with this company and they have also done business with Williams Aerial Photography in the past, but their experience is that this photography is better resolution photography for the money.


Commissioner Williams stated he remembers doing the last aerials for the cost of $155,000.00 and he thinks that it is clear that the primary use wouldn’t be Cumulative Drains and he was wondering if part of the funding could come out of the E911 fund as they would probably use it more than Drainage Board. He added that he thinks that someone other than the Drainage Board ought to help fund this as more than just one office utilizes the aerials.


Commissioner Conner stated that his concern about the E911 is to determine whether or not there is sufficient funding there to pay off that service because apparently her money is not restricted or encumbered for anything else, but he doesn’t know what is in the E911 account.


Commissioner Williams stated that we have to be able to justify it and he thinks by talking to Mr. Ashley that it can be justified.


Mr. Ashley answered that he didn’t think it would be that much of a stretch.


Commissioner Conner stated he wasn’t worried about justifying the expense he is just concerned about there being sufficient funding in there to use, because the money was primarily set aside to pay for the enhanced 911 system, but we could find out.


Commissioner Williams stated he did not have a problem with the Drainage Board funding it from Cumulative Drains he just wants to make sure that we are legit.


Mr. Mundy also explained that in the 911 center there is Think Map and OSSI. OSSI is the CAD system and it has its own map that is drawn with tiger data, the difference is that with OSSI for 911 it puts a cross in the center of the street while ours circles the house. He added that there was some issue with addresses so 911 went with OSSI exclusively for their pop-up map and using this map as a secondary. Mr. Mundy explained that there is a possibility for the County to be reimbursed by the 911 wireless board because they will reimburse for the costs that are associated with accepting phase II wireless costs for cell phones where you have the GPS receiver so that when you call 911 it sends a signal and pops up where you are on the map, so if you are using the aerial photography for that reason you can apply to the wireless board and get your photography 100% reimbursed. He added that they meet twice a year and you have to have your photography paid for and show them proof of payment.


Commissioner Williams asked if this is a State Board?


Mr. Mundy answered yes it is and added that Tim Berry, the State Treasurer sits on the Board with several other people. He added that it doesn’t necessary have to be aerial photography it can be associated with buying equipment for phase II, that is all reimbursable.


Karan asked if this was a decision that the Sheriff would have to make as it was his decision to use OSSI?


Mr. Mundy answered that is correct but it is still a possibility that it could be turned in even though it may only be 50%.


Commissioner Williams asked if there was an actual form?


Mr. Mundy answered that his company usually sends out the form.


Karan stated that we could go ahead and get the aerial photography done, pay for it and Mr. Mundy could go ahead and apply for it if the Sheriff and the Commissioners go along with it and it may be reimbursed.


Mr. Mundy stated that he could not guarantee a reimbursement because of the way both of them are used.


Commissioner Williams stated it never hurts to ask.


Commissioner Conner stated that what he would like to see the Board do is not make a decision today but take this under advisement and pursue it with the Sheriffs Department relative to their usage in the 911 system and then come back and make a decision as to what the Board wants to do relative to this proposal because it could possibly if they use it there is a possibility that we could get 100% of our total cost back. But, if we would make this decision that would only be relative to this department, the County Surveyor.


Mr. Mundy stated that they have never looked as to where the money actually came from, but the reimbursement does go back to the 911 account and that is the only place it can go.


Commissioner Conner stated that if the Sheriff’s Department would not be in agreement to use this system with the 911, we could not apply for the money to be reimbursed.


Karan stated that we would lose our window of opportunity to get it flown and actually getting the aerial photography at this low cost.


Mr. Mundy stated that you have until June 30, 2004 to get your application for the reimbursement.


Commissioner Conner explained that is what he is trying to think through, do we need to get the Sheriff’s Department on board here with this process for purposes of giving us an opportunity to possibly have it reimbursed, if we do not do that his understanding is that we do not have a chance for reimbursement at all, is that correct?


Mr. Mundy answered yes, but you have until……….


Commissioner Williams stated that he does not think Mr. Mundy understood what Commissioner Conner is asking and asked Commissioner Conner to restate his question.


Commissioner Conner explained that what he was asking is to get reimbursement to have the opportunity to get the reimbursement from the State level, this would have to be a system that would have to be signed off by the Sheriff’s Department and would have to be utilized with the 911 system that we presently have established, is that correct?


Mr. Mundy answered it would have to be utilized by the 911 system, but its signed off by the Board of Commissioners.


Commissioner Conner asked but for it to be utilized in 911, he assumes they would have to have the Sheriff’s Department approval.


Karan stated the Sheriff’s Department utilizes our current aerial photography.


Sherri Phillips from APC stated her office enters every house number in the Think Map and the Sheriff’s Office does use it as they call her office wanting to know where addresses are located, so they do use it.


Commissioner Conner stated so they do use the present system and they would also use the updated system and if that is the case we would have the opportunity to recover the monies from the State level, is that correct?


Mr. Mundy answered yes.


Karan stated that they actually use both systems.


Mr. Mundy stated that he does not know how the Wireless Board would review that if you informed them that you use both systems and they will also ask if you have ever been reimbursed from OSSI at some point or if you have ever applied.


Commissioner Williams stated the bottom line whether the State approves to refund or not will have no impact on this Board as it will not come back to us it will have to go E911 as you stated earlier, it would not benefit Cumulative Drain and his thought is that they are looking at spending $95,000.00 less than they did 4 years ago. He added that there is a tight window as February 1st is Sunday morning.


Karan stated she had it on the agenda for the Council on Thursday and she would like to be able to tell them that the Drainage Board agrees with this purchase.


Commissioner Williams asked Mr. Mundy if the Board could apply for the reimbursement?


Mr. Mundy explained that before they could apply for the reimbursement they have to show proof of payment, so the project has to be completed and paid for before applying as they will need to see copies of the check.


Commissioner Conner asked if we pay for it out of Cumulative Drain, does that prevent the Board from recovering the reimbursement from the State because it did not come out of E911?


Mr. Mundy answered that other Counties have paid for it out of other funds, but the money can only be reimbursed to E911.


Commissioner Conner stated that if we take the $60,000.00 out of Cumulative Drain we can submit the proposal for reimbursement and if they decide to reimburse us because it is presently being used by the E911 system then the monies will not go back into Cumulative Drain, but will go into E911.


Karan stated that the Sheriff would probably be very happy about that.


Mr. Mundy stated that Spencer County’s Auditor had E911 loan the money to the Drainage Board and then the money was reimbursed back into E911.


Commissioner Conner stated that Sara Arnold is the County Auditor and also the Secretary to the County Commissioners. He asked if they received 100% of their money back?


Mr. Mundy answered yes they did.


Commissioner Williams made a motion to spend up to $60,000.00 of the Cumulative Drain Funds for the Aerial Photography, 2nd by Commissioner Conner. Motion carried 3-0.


Mr. Mundy stated the Board or Commissioners need to check and make sure that in the past they have not filed for any reimbursements and he also told the Board to keep in mind that any expenses that come up in relation to Phase II compliance are reimbursable.


Commissioner Conner thanked Mr. Mundy for that information as no one is getting anything else from the State right now.


Commissioner Williams asked Mr. Mundy to explain Phase II compliant?


Mr. Mundy explained Phase II is the ability to receive and display cell phone locations based on the GPS chip as a cell phone or the tower location that it is coming from.


Commissioner Williams asked if it is strictly cell phone?


Mr. Mundy answered yes.


Commissioner Williams stated that may be some of the problem that the fire departments are having in the Newburgh area.


Mr. Mundy stated that is the $.65 on your cell phone statement every month.





President Baxter stated the next order of business is approval of the claims and asked for any discussion.


Commissioner Conner asked about the claim for Petter Business Systems and the toner for the copier. He asked if those are new or refurbished?


Karan answered that they are new as it is the dry carbon cartridge.


Commissioner Conner asked if the machine could not use the refurbished? He added that the County has a contract with Alpha-graphics and you can save approximately 50% off the cost and that all County Offices need to utilize the contracts if possible.


Rod Madden, Deputy stated Eric told him not to use the refurbished and then realized that he was talking about the plotter, not the copier, and told the Board to disregard what he had said.


Karan stated she would check into it the next time supplies are ordered.


Commissioner Williams made a motion to pay the claims, 2nd by Commissioner Conner. Motion carried 3-0.


President Baxter asked for any other business to come before the Board?





Karan stated that she had talked to Vern from the Highway Department and he was supposed to contact the Commissioners on Hutchinson Ditch to ask for permission on improvements. She explained that in talking to the property owners along the ditch they were agreeable to allow the Drainage Board to pull the banks back to a 3:1 and in some places a 4:1 slope if we could drop the culvert at Pigeon Switch Road where Hutchinson Ditch goes under it. She added that the culvert will only have to be dropped about 12-inches and in talking to Vern and his foreman of that district they don’t have a problem as the culvert is not being replaced, its only going to be pulled out and dug down and put back in. She requests the Commissioners approval for the Highway Department to lower the culvert on Hutchinson Ditch in conjunction with the Drainage Board project which is coming up in the next week or so.


Commissioner Conner asked if the Highway Department was planning on billing the Drainage Board for their time and services?


Karan stated she did not think so as it was never discussed. She added that it is all County Highway and she thinks everyone should work together as it is like robbing Peter to pay Paul.


Commissioner Conner disagreed with Karan due to the fact that we need to have an appropriate matching of costs in the appropriate budgets and he understands what Karan is saying, but the flip side of it is how do we know when the budget that those specific costs or dollar amounts are related to the operation of a Highway Garage and some that is not related to your office. He added that is why he is saying that unless it is just a minimal job he thinks they need to be billing the Drainage Board for man-hours and machine time.


Karan said whatever it takes to get the job done, she doesn’t want the job to be held up.


Commissioner Conner asked about how many days would this project take?


Karan answered it would probably take about ½ a day.


Commissioner Conner stated he did not have a problem with ½ a day or less but when we get into jobs that are going to take days at a time and taking people out of the Highway Department from highway projects to do projects for her department or any other department, he thinks they need to be billing for their hours and there needs to be transfers of monies within budgets.


Commissioner Williams stated if we are talking about lowering a culvert a foot he would like the County Engineer to make sure it is engineered properly. He explained that he just didn’t want to pull a culvert out and lower it a foot, he would like a licensed engineer to sign off on it.


Commissioner Conner asked if we wanted the Engineers Office to do that and then have them come back to next months meeting with a response or just say that based upon his approval to go ahead and do the project.


Commissioner Williams said that would be in two weeks, it doesn’t matter to him however the Board wants to handle it.


Rod Madden stated the project will probably be completed by then, it doesn’t matter to him whether the culvert gets lowered or not, the landowners stated that it was installed too high when it was first put in and his field tiles will not drain into the culvert.


Karan stated that if we wait 2 weeks the project will be done and water will be standing.


Commissioner Williams asked if we were talking about putting a culvert below the bottom of the ditch?


Karan answered no, we are redoing Hutchinson Ditch so when you drop grade down to where it needs to be then the culvert needs to be dropped too so that it doesn’t hold water upstream. She added that if the culvert isn’t done and we do the project as we planned to do it there will be water in the ditch at the culvert and it won’t drain.


Rod added that the machinery is sitting there now and he is supposed to start tomorrow.


Karan stated that it is not that big of a deal, it’s just pulling a culvert out and dropping it and putting it back in.


Commissioner Conner asked Rod whose equipment was sitting out there?


Rod answered that it was Henry Bigge’s equipment.


Karan stated that the job was bid out last year and he has just been waiting for good weather.


Commissioner Williams stated he may wait a little longer.


President Baxter stated he did not think it was supposed to rain, he asked the Board what their decision was?


Commissioner Conner stated that Don was the one who raised the question about the Engineer.


Commissioner Williams stated he just wanted to make sure that the culvert is put in at the proper level.


Karan said that they gave the plans to Vern and he has looked at them.


Commissioner Williams stated that Vern is not an Engineer. He added that if it needs to be done we need to make sure that we’re doing it right the first time and it sounds like it a plan and wouldn’t take anything to go out and look at it. He stated that either Mr. Sherwood or Mr. Howard could run out there and look at it in a matter of an hour or so, we’re not talking about doing any surveying or shooting grade?


Rod answered we’re talking about lowering our ditch to accommodate the culvert and you can have them look at it if you want to, its whatever the Board wants.


Commissioner Williams stated that he just doesn’t want to have a pool at the culvert.


Karan answered that her crew wouldn’t let a project go through that would leave a pool in the culvert and her crew does do good work.


Rod agreed saying he didn’t think there had been any ditches done like that in the last 2 years that he knows of and he also doesn’t know of any complaint from any landowners by the ditches.


President Baxter asked Rod if he could be out there to shoot grade when they lower the culvert?


Rod answered yes, he could.


President Baxter stated that was settled and asked Commissioner Williams if that was all right with him?


Commissioner Williams answered that it takes two.


Commissioner Conner stated he was waiting on a motion from Don either one way or the other.


Commissioner Williams stated he wants to make sure it is done right as that is his District.


Karan said are you saying we haven’t done anything right in your District?


Commissioner Williams answered that he wasn’t saying that at all, but if we’re bringing the Highway Department into it, we’re not talking about standard procedure here, we’re talking about a joint procedure and then when we talk about moving a culvert we are talking about road culvert, are we not?


Karan answered yes that is correct, whatever the Board wants to do she just needs a decision.


Commissioner Williams stated he is not so much concerned about moving the culvert as much as he is about the road being put back right and he thinks the Engineer ought to take a look at it. He made a motion to approve the request contingent upon the Engineer certifying that the road and the culvert are going to be correct. He added that when roads are moved, bridges are his responsibility and that is what it constitutes basically, 2nd by Commissioner Conner, but he wanted to know what the time frame was, does it have to come back here to be approved?


President Williams answered his motion was contingent upon the Engineer’s ok on the project.


Motion carried 3-0.


President Baxter stated that probably the Engineer could get out there tomorrow and take care of that.


Karan wants someone on the Board to contact the Engineer and advise him of this project.


Commissioner Williams stated that he wasn’t insinuating that she didn’t do good work, when we are talking about roads and culverts it really constitutes a bridge and that is the Engineers job.


Karan stated that she wasn’t offended, she just doesn’t want the project to be held up because we have to wait on the Engineer as the machinery is already there.


Commissioner Williams stated this should probably have come before us 2 weeks ago.


Karan answered that it did not come to her attention that Vern hadn’t talked to the Commissioner’s until today when she told him the equipment was out there and Vern asked Karan if she had received permission from the Commissioners and she answered that she thought he had talked to you.


President Baxter asked if there was any other business.




Commissioner Conner asked Karan if she had the spec information in regards to the vehicle and the copier that her office is wanting to purchase?


Karan answered that she is withdrawing the request for the vehicle at this time and the copier specs had already been sent in the transition of conversations with Roger and the letter that he gave me asking me to be my own purchasing agent. The requests for quotes and specs were sent out to Xerox, Lang and Icon for quotes. She explained she already had those requests in the mail by the time word was sent that the Board did not want that to take place. She added that she has two quotes back and she was going to bring them to the Board Wednesday, but she’ll just give them to Roger.


Commissioner Conner asked Karan why she was withdrawing her request for the vehicle? Is it that you don’t need one?


Karan answered that she is going to ask for it out of County General as that is where the old truck was originally purchased from. She added that she doesn’t think that a truck that was purchased from County General should be replaced by monies from Cumulative Drain Fund.


Commissioner Conner asked Karan if she had the money in her budget for a capital expenditure?


Karan answered that is Surveyor budget, but no she will have to ask for additional appropriation.


President Baxter asked for anything further to come before this meeting?


Commissioner Williams made a motion to adjourn, 2nd by Commissioner Conner. Motion carried