OCTOBER 13, 2004

3:00 P.M.




MEMBERS PRESENT:†††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††† Phillip H. Baxter, President

††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††† Carl Jay Conner, Vice-President

††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††† Don Williams, Secretary

††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††† Karan Barnhill, Surveyor

††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††† Don Ashley, Attorney for Board



ALSO PRESENT:†††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††† Joe Johns, Sandra Knight, Jim Hunter

††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††† Dorothy Hunter and Jim Niemeyer.



President Baxter brought the October 13, 2004 meeting to order.


APPROVAL OF MINUTES: September 22, 2004


Commissioner Williams made a motion to approve the minutes of September 22, 2004, 2nd by President Baxter. Motion carried 3-0.







Karan explained that Engelbrecht Place Section II is a continuation of the existing Engelbrecht Subdivision that was done by Mr. Engelbrecht and Mr. Holweger, this property lies South of Vann Road and South of the existing Engelbrecht Place Subdivision and actually is the old orchard on State Road 261. She stated that they have met all the requirements for retention and showed the Board on the plans where the retention basins were going to be placed. She also explained that all the storm water within the development would be retained without leaving the site and that the one basin to the left is discharging out a structure that willgo into the Springston-Canterberry Development and down the drainage easement that exists there, they have returned that discharge point into a sheet flow condition so that it wonít affect the property owners.


She added that they have met all of the requirements and she recommends approval.


President Baxter asked if there were any remonstrators in the audience? He then asked if the developers had anything to add. They stated they were there just to answer any questions the Board had, the gentlemen were Jim Morley, Jr. and Alan Holweger.


Commissioner Williams made a motion to approve the drainage plans, 2nd by Commissioner Conner. Motion carried 3-0.





Karan stated that Freedom Subdivision is a development that is located on FolsomvilleRoad and consists of 6 lots all of which are larger that 5 acres and they have requested that no drainage plans be required because of the size of the lots. She added that they have not created any new roadways or installed any new drainage structures and therefore she does request approval.


President Baxter asked if there was anyone present to represent this subdivision?


There was discussion about who the developers were and it was asked of Karan if she knew why there was no one to represent the drainage plan?


Karan answered that the Engineer is Mark Chamness and the owner is the REC Group. She added that they get notices about when and where the meetings are going to be held.


Sherri Phillips added that they are aware that they have to be present and without the drainage approval their plat will not be approved either.


Commissioner Williams made a motion to table the drainage plan until the next meeting, 2nd by Commissioner Conner. Motion carried 3-0.




Karan stated that the next item on the agenda is for discussion only. She added that for the past 2 years, she, Sherri and some other representatives from the County have been meeting with Bernardin, Lochmueller & Associates and are in the process of updating the Subdivision Control Ordinance and Comprehensive Zoning Ordinance. She stated that during the discussions they have discussed the need for Drainage Ordinances in Warrick County and since they have basically finished the Comprehensive Zoning Ordinance, now they are updating the Subdivision Control Ordinance, she also discussed with them the possibility of them also incorporating in that same deal preparation of a Drainage Ordinance because in her opinion the County needs a Drainage Ordinance so the developers & engineers will have guidelines to go by.


Karan added that the wording in the Subdivision Ordinance is going to have to tie in with the Drainage Ordinance and vice-versa, so she just asked Bernardin & Lochmueller to give her a price of what it would cost to do a preparation of the Drainage Ordinance in junction with the Subdivision Ordinance. She stated they gave her a price of $9,770.00 to do the Ordinance in conjunction but it would be in a separate book and it would have to be adopted by the Commissioners.


Commissioner Williams asked if this would be similar to the one that Vanderburgh County adopted not long ago?


Karan answered that Vanderburgh County adopted an Erosion Control Ordinance as they already had a Drainage Ordinance and they just added to the Drainage Ordinance. She added that she thinks Warrick County needs a Drainage Ordinance and she also stated that the Storm Water Consultant is supposed to include in their project an Erosion Control Ordinance, so that would go into another package with the Drainage Ordinance so that we would have two separate deals.


Commissioner Williams asked if that was the 3rd part of the MS4?


Karan answered yes and stated that what she is asking the Drainage Board to do is to support her in turning in an Additional Appropriation to the Council out of the Drainage Board budget, not out of Cumulative Drain to have the consultant prepare this ordinance.


Commissioner Williams asked if the Drainage Board currently had the funds to get this done?


Karan answered no, that she would have to go to the Council and get an Additional Appropriation.


Commissioner Conner asked if they were going to do the content or doing the format?


Karan answered they would do the entire ordinance.


Commissioner Conner asked if they would do the content based upon input from the Surveyors Office?


Karan answered yes and also from the Commissioners, as the Commissioners are the ones who will adopt the ordinance.


Commissioner Conner stated but initially donít they have to have something to work with?


Karan answered that the way it has been discussed is to handle it basically the same way that we are doing the Subdivision Control Ordinance, we will have meetings with everybody together and get input and ideas on how to put it together. She added that she has given them ideas of what she thinks it needs and that is what they have based their price on and they will meet with us for discussions.


Commissioner Williams asked how they were to know if this is going to be a reasonable price even though they are the obvious ones to do this as they did do the other ordinances and he also appreciates the input that Karan sent to the Commissioners.


Karan thanked Commissioner Williams and asked the Board if they wanted her to proceed and go to the Council with an Additional Appropriation with their blessing to do so or how would they like her to proceed?


Commissioner Williams answered that the County needs a Drainage Ordinance, but he does not know how the other two Commissioners feel and with MS4 he doesnít think there is any choice but to have a Drainage Ordinance and also an Erosion Control Ordinance.


Karan stated that her fear has always been that there really are no guidelines adopted for drainage other than the one-sheet requirements and we get a lot of calls from people. She also stated that she has a lot of ideas to keep the County from spending an exuberant amount of money fixing drainage problems when we could fix them at the time of the development. She added that is one of the things she is trying to do is look at for problems that would arise in the 10 years in the future and maybe be fielded out before they get there.


President Baxter stated that he agreed with Commissioner Williams that the County needs a Drainage Ordinance and he does not think that the money sounds too extreme.


Commissioner Williams asked Commissioner Conner how he feels about the figure since he is the businessman in the group?


Commissioner Conner answered that there is really nothing to judge it by but he does agree that an Ordinance needs to be drafted and we know that the company is qualified to do it.


Commissioner Williams stated that the Board is asking for a service so that is not a problem and since they did the other Ordinances he thinks they should do it. He made a motion to approve the Surveyors request to ask the Council for an Additional Appropriation for the Drainage Ordinance, 2nd by Commissioner Conner. Motion carried 3-0.


Commissioner Williams added that the cost was not to exceed the $9,770.00 price that Bernardin & Lochmueller quoted.




President Baxter stated the Drainage Board had claims that amounted to $22,418.24.


Commissioner Conner asked if all of the projects were complete or are they partial payments?


Karan answered that most of the claims are for supplies, but on the projects some of them are started but not yet complete.

Commissioner Williams asked about the Beaver Trapper and how many did they trap?


The recording secretary answered that she believed there were four beavers 1 male, 1 female and 2 babies.


Commissioner Williams made a motion to approve the claims as submitted, 2nd by Commissioner Conner. Motion carried 3-0.


President Baxter asked if there was any other business to come before this meeting?


Commissioner Conner made a motion to adjourn, 2nd by Commissioner Williams. Motion carried 3-0.


After the meeting was adjourned there were people in the audience who had wanted to speak to the Drainage Board and they had signed the sign in sheet and had not heard President Baxter asked if there was any other business. It was explained that the sign in sheet for discussion was for the Commissionerís Meeting and the sheet they signed was for the minutes of the Drainage Board to see who was present.


President Baxter asked for a motion to reconvene the meeting, Commissioner Conner so moved, 2nd by Commissioner Williams. Motion carried 3-0.




Mr. Joe Johns introduced himself to the Board and stated that he resided in Tanglewood Subdivision with his address being 7844 Tanglewood Drive, Newburgh, and he stated that he had come to speak to the Board about the Sandals Subdivision and he understood that when it was approved they were supposed to put in their own access road complete with a culvert to reach the back half of their property. He asked if this was not correct?


Karan answered that the development that was approved had a connecting street from Tanglewood and a connecting street to Telephone Road, they secondary platted only the front portion along Telephone Road, she added that when they platted it they platted it to the ditch and they received Letters of Credit to construct the street up to the ditch. She explained that they had the rest of the development on the other side of the ditch and this is probably more of a Commissioner item than a Drainage Board item, but they did have two connecting streets (but there was never any agreement with anybody through the Drainage Board and she is not speaking for the Commissioners, just from the Drainage Board standpoint) to make them have their traffic go through off of Telephone Road only.


Mr. Johns stated that at the rate they are going, they are not going to have a street left and that is the only access we have in & out of our subdivision. He than ask what the purpose was for a holding pond in a subdivision?


Karan answered it was to retain the water in the development and release it slowly.


Mr. Johns asked what good is a full holding pond? He stated that all of the subdivisions that are being built around them on Coal Mine Road as well as Sandals, their holding ponds are full and they canít hold any more water.


Karan answered that they have free board above, the normal pool of water of the discharge pipe. She explained that when a subdivision is approved the developer is required to have so much freeboard; that is the storage area and there may always be water in the pond, but it is the pipe that holds and releases it. She explained that just because you see it at the end of the pipe does not mean that it is not still holding back water, as it also has an emergency overflow.


Mr. Johns stated that she is aware of how much water comes through Tanglewood Subdivision, he added that he fought for 10 years to get the culvert torn out on Tanglewood and replaced because they kept telling him that he did not have a water problem and the day they put the new culvert in that was 1 Ĺ times the size they had previously, it was maxed out the day it was completed, it fill up in a matter of half an hour. He stated that up until that point he was repeatedly told that he did not have a water problem. He added that he was told that the ditch was going to be cleaned out all the way down and it has been widened in the Sandals Subdivision but as soon as you reach the border it is 3-feet wide again.


Karan answered that they have not done that section of the ditch yet. She also admitted that he does have a drainage problem and she is trying very hard to eliminate it.


Mr. Johns asked when the County was going to do that portion of the ditch, stating that this is going to flood him out and he added that the new culvert has definitely helped, but they need to put their culvert in Sandals Subdivision and it canít be any smaller than ours or we will flood worse than we do.


Karan stated that they actually have designed a bridge to go across that road.


Mr. Johns asked when they were going to put it in as Tanglewood only has one access to their homes and they are tearing up the new culvert that was just put in as it is already leaking, there is supposed to be a 10-ton limit but tri-axles go in there and they weigh almost 10-ton empty.


Commissioner Williams asked what time of the day are the trucks running?


Mr. Johns answered all day long with all different kinds of tri-axels and semi trucks that are 40-feet long and all of them are full with concrete blocks and other materials. He also stated that the storm sewers are loose also from all of this traffic. He added that the traffic is also dangerous to their children.


Commissioner Williams asked what is the name of the Legal Drain being discussed?


Karan answered that it is Tanglewood Ditch and it drains into Gardner-Webb Ditch.


Commissioner Williams asked how long of a stretch are we talking about that goes from the 3-feet from the subdivision?


Karan answered that it may be a ľ of a mile or so to get to Gardner-Webb Ditch, but then we get to another problem when it hits Gardner-Webb Ditch it hits a ďYĒ and it kind of slows it down there and that is why she has been holding off and waiting trying to design and figure out how we are going to handle that curve going into Gardner-Webb.


Mr. Johns stated that Sandals Subdivision should have never been approved because the ditch canít handle this water and its going to flood us out.


Karan answered that all of that water goes to a retention basin and then goes into a pond.


Mr. Johns stated that pond cannot handle another 2 Ĺfeet of water coming through the subdivision, she has seen it before.


Karan explained that what they have provided, is according to HERPICC Manuel, which is designed by the Engineers of Purdue University and according to their calculations, it will handle it. She stated that she has reviewed the calculations even double reviewed them because she knew there could be problems.


Mr. Johns invited the Drainage Board to come out to his subdivision stating they can pick the time and the date; and look at it. He stated he will show them where at one time he and his daughter were out in a john boat surveying the damage.


Commissioner Williams asked Mr. Johns what his address was again and Mr. Johns answered that it was 7844 Tanglewood Drive and his phone number is 925-7218. He stated he would make himself available at all times.


Mr. Jim Hinton stated he lives at 7833 Brownwood Drive and that he probably has the deepest part of that ditch on his property. He added that last year about 3 times the water was within 2 feet of his garage and he is also at the highest part where the ditch is the deepest and it is all coming from up above us. He went on to say that their street floods every time there is a big rain because there is no place for it to go.


Karan stated that she knows the runoff that he is getting is coming off of the hill behind him and coming down through Pleasant Ridge and hitting the Tanglewood Ditch. She stated it has been discussed with Mr. Bosma the possibility of acquiring some property there and making it a retention basin. She apologized as she kind of dropped the ball on that as her office has been swamped. She added that there were some improvements made by removing the debris out of the ditch and also removing some trees. They were also looking at doing some work going through the development but when you get down to Sandals Development they have widened the toe, which has given that portion of the ditch more capacity.


Mr. Hinton agreed that it was not Sandals Subdivision, but the problem is that it is coming down above us and instead of our street draining into a ditch it comes out of the ditch and into the street onto our property.


Karan agreed that this is a poorly designed subdivision and it is older, the structures were undersized, as back then they designed all structures for 25-year storm event, but we never have a 25-year storm event, we have 100 year storm event at least 5 times a year and maybe more. She added that we design our storm structures at 50-year storm now, so they are bigger now than they used to be. She explained that when they do ditches and plans now they try to plan ahead for the future. She added that what they are experiencing is something that we can try to correct as much as we can but its old and there is not a whole lot we can do other than widening the ditch and sloping the ditch banks, but then what happens is that we are in your house because the houses are built on the ditch.


Mr. Hinton agreed that Karan is trying, but his problem is that he has no access to his property across the ditch to be able to keep it cleaned up.


Karan stated that her office could provide him with weed killer to spray the ditch.


Mr. Hinton stated that weed killer would not do it as the trees that were cut down are now sprouting up again.


Karan stated that they are trying their best to get the work done, but she only has 4 people in her office with 400 miles of ditches and we are trying to keep everybody happy, but she will put it back on the list.


Commissioner Conner asked Mr. Hinton if it was his property on the other side of the ditch?


Mr. Hinton answered that it was and he has no access to get any equipment over there except for a weed eater and when they cut down the trees they didnít remove the tree stumps, so you couldnít use a mower anyway.


Commissioner Conner stated that the tree stumps should have been removed.


Karan answered that the tree service would not do it as the stumps had steel and wire in them from fences and besides that they are holding the bank now also. She also added that her office does not have the manpower to maintain everybodyís ditches to their houses and keep them clean. We will keep the flow running and get the major trees out of the way, we will also provide them with weed killer, but her crew can only do so much.


Mrs. Hinton stated he wasnít complaining because they left the stumps it is because there is no access as he could remove the stumps himself.


Commissioner Williams stated that he has heard all he needs to hear and he sees this as a safety and security issue and also he thinks that this has been going on in the Tanglewood Subdivision too long and he made a motion that this Board make Tanglewood Ditch a priority especially the cleaning and widening down to Gardner-Webb and whatever we need to do to make this flow, we need to do it.


Commissioner Conner asked Karan if the ditch could be straightened out?


Karan answered she did not know it would have to be studied, but she would look into it.


President Baxter stated there was a motion on the floor, 2nd by Commissioner Conner. Motion carried 3-0.


Commissioner Williams made a motion to adjourn, 2nd by Commissioner Conner. Motion carried 3-0.