COMMISSIONERS MEETING ROOM
February 8, 2006
The Warrick County Drainage Board met in regular session with President Don Williams presiding, also in attendance were Phillip H. Baxter, Vice-President; Carl Jay Conner, Secretary; James E. Niemeyer, Surveyor and David K. Zengler, Attorney for Board.
Also present was Sean M. Owen, Deputy Surveyor.
Minutes were recorded and transcribed by Cheryl D. Embry.
Audience attendance was Ray and Ruth Parker, Luke Sharara, Tod Bischaff , Bruce Miller and Sherri Rector.
APPROVAL OF MINUTES:
President Don Williams brought the meeting to order with the first order of business being the approval of minutes of January 25, 2006. He asked the Board if they had a chance to look at the minutes and if so what is their desire?
Carl Conner: I move that we approve the minutes as presented.
Phil Baxter: Second
Don Williams:† †Have a second, all those in favor say aye.
All voted aye, motion was carried 3-0.
Jim Niemeyer:† The first one on the list is Lynn Ridge P.R.U.D. Everything seems to be in order, nothing has changed.
Don Williams:† You are requesting that no additional drainage structure be required, Mr. Surveyor, do you have any comments on it?
Jim Niemeyer:† No, I think everything is fine.
Don Williams:† Have you looked at it?
Jim Niemeyer:† Yes
Don Williams: ††Where will the drainage go?
Half of it will go to the drainage ditch on State Road 68 and the
remaining will go to the South in the ditch along
Bill Bivins:† †Basically the drainage is going the same way it did when we had Lynn Ridge Subdivision approved, it goes to that ditch and goes underneath I-64, which is not a County maintained ditch.
Don Williams:† It might should be in time though the way that ditch looks. It drains about 2/3 of the town up there.
Carl Conner:† Where does it drain under I-64?
Bill Bivins: Just east of 61, see weíre close to 61, there.
Don Williams:† You canít be very far east, if Iím right, Mr. Bivins, itís probably within a 100 yards, easy.
Bill Bivins:† Yes,
it comes down behind
Carl Conner:† So, then is this the one that (help me with the developers name) yes, Randall Pemberton, on the back side there. I guess my question was, it says here we are requesting that on additional drainage structures be required? Basically, when you make that statement, are you making a statement that you are of the opinion that there would be additional drainage required at the standards they are as such?
Bill Bivins:† No, what has actually happened, this piece of property is the old collection site for the trash and that is 95% of the yard is blacktopped and we are actually reducing that down, so there will be more grass on the ground and there will be less runoff than there is right now.
Don Williams:† In other words, your just adjusting your plan because of the apartments that you want to put in there.
Bill Bivins:† Yes, weíre coming in tonight for rezoning for this lot and there is a conflict, one place I think we have to have the rezoning before we come in and the other place we have to have this approved before we can go to rezoning. So, weíre trying to cover all the bases today to get it through.
Carl Conner:† Jim, are you of the opinion that whatís presently planned or that is in place from a drainage perspective is appropriate for the project?
Jim Niemeyer:† Yes
Don Williams:† We approved the drainage for that subdivision, the only thing heís adding there is where we had that trash collection site.
Bill Bivins:† Weíre actually reducing the drainage runoff on it.
Mr. Williams asked if there were any more questions, then asked for the will of the Board?
Phil Baxter: I move we approve the drainage plans as shown. Seconded by Carl Conner. Motion carried 3-0.
CROWN POINT SUBDIVISION:
Don Williams:† Is here someone here to represent this subdivision?
Bill Bivins was representing Crown Point Subdivision.
Bill Bivins:† This is an 18 lot subdivision which was formerly part of the Willow Pond Subdivision which I had approved last year. 12 acres of that subdivision has been sold to the developer now and we are making an 18 lot subdivision instead of a large subdivision. An upscale subdivision with minimum of 3,000 square feet living area is what the restrictions are going to have in this area.
Don Williams:† Are we sure that retention basin is going to be large enough?
Bill Bivins:† Based on the calculations, yes sir. Itís about half the size of what we had for the original plans which I included a little more than twice the acreage.
Carl Conner: Okay, this is on
Bill Bivins:† You
can see right at the top of the plan where
Carl Conner:† Jim, are you saying that these, in your opinion, these drainage plans are appropriate for these 18 lots?
Jim Niemeyer:†† We checked it and they did check out.
Carl Conner: ok, Bill I guess my concern is and
I† know itís not an issue for this, but
Iím just sitting here looking at it and I think that this is on the APC agenda
tonight also for street plans and just looking at it from what we see here. I
only see the one entrance or one exit which if off of
Bill Bivins:† The property to the south has access on both Grimm and Willow Pond Road and I think whom ever develops that is going to be required to have access on both roads, so we feel like itís not necessary to stub one out to the south and the property to the east is also owned by the same people.
Carl Conner: All right, but I disagree with you, everybody sees it differently. Iím not saying your wrong, Iím just saying I do not agree with you and I guess my question is what if the street plans are not acceptable as presented and Iím not saying that they wonít be or they will be and you have to make some revisions to the drainage plan for purposes of† putting in street Right-of-Ways one to the south and one to the east, if that would occur maybe we would be better off, at least Iím thinking maybe weíd be better off to table this and take a look at the street plans first to see what weíre going to do with the street plans and if the street plans are going to pass or be approved as presented or if thereís going to be some changes to them. Thatís myÖand those are comments of just one person.
Don Williams:† The batting order has always been drainage plans and then street plans.
Carl Conner:† I understand that, but what Iím saying is maybe we need to reverse that order for purposes of maybe saving some time and some additional work. Thatís just my opinion.
Bill Bivins:† The feeling of the owners is probably that due to the fact that this is going to be a ďquote quoteĒ upscale subdivision that they really did not want additional traffic running through it and knowing that there is access to the property from both Grimm and Willow Pond that surrounds this, we felt that it was not necessary to stub yet.
Carl Conner:† I understand and you understand my position.
Don Williams:† Do you have any questions about the drainage plans, Mr. Baxter?
Phil Baxter: I was just looking, these are all approximately Ĺ acre lots, arenít they?
Bill Bivins:† Yes they are large lots for a subdivision.
Don Williams asked what was the will of the Board.
Phil Baxter:† I move that we approve the drainage plans for Crown Point Estates.
Don Williams:† Do I have a second?† Iíll second the motion.
Motion was carried 2-1 with Commissioner Conner voting to oppose.
Don Williams:† Before you go though I will tell you I have more than one problem with the road plans because for one thing I see goes directly against our ordinance, so I have a problem with that.
Carl Conner:† Yeah, that was only one issue and that is whyÖ.I have several other issues also, but I donít know if your involved in street plans or not.
Bill Bivins:† Yes, afraid so.
WYNGATE SUBDIVISION SECTION B:†
Jim Niemeyer:† Mr. Miller.
Bruce Miller:† Bruce Miller with Barrington Development Group.
Don Williams:† Mr. Surveyor, your comments as far as drainage.
Jim Niemeyer:† There is very little change if any on the drainage. Mr. Miller has changed the entrance a little bit and changed the location of some pipes and thatís all.
Don Williams:† Okay and this is a redo, have we already approved this once, Mr. Miller?
Bruce Miller:† You did what this is, this is the ďBĒ Section in the final section of Wyngate Subdivision, this was in the preliminary plat. Iíve come back for a secondary, there were minor changes made, very minor, but significant enough to make sure that the as-builts on record showed those minor changes and that is why the executive director asked me to come back through the process to make sure the minor changes that were made are showing on the recorded plat. So the retention area which primarily is the purpose of your decision today has not changed at all. There has been no change in the drainage what-so-ever, the modification I made was moving the street slightly that you see right beside the drainage basin that caused me to come back through the whole process.
That goes out on
Bruce Miller:† It does.
Don Williams asked Mr. Miller to please approach the Board and show them on the plans what he had done to the road.
Bruce Miller:† The
original road plan on Thornridge was approximately 50-feet to the west and I
moved that street down closer in this direction and that was approved by the
Plan Commission based on that it continued to meet all the requirements of
being offset from the closest street, which was
Don Williams:† Thank you.
Carl Conner:† The street basicallyÖBruce havenít you already put that through?
Bruce Miller:† Yes,
the street is already in place. Iím looking to get a secondary plat recorded so
Don Williams:† Are there any other questions from the Board?† Whatís the will of the Board?
Carl Conner:† I would move that we approved the request of Wyngate Subdivision Section B.
Phil Baxter:† Iíll second it.
Don Williams:† Motion has been made and seconded, all in favor say aye.
All members of the Board voted aye. Motion passed 3-0.
Don Williams:† Mrs. Parker, would you come forward, please and state your names and addresses and who you represent.
Ray Parker:† Iím
Ruth Parker:† Iím
Don Williams:† Thank you, I read your request, now youíre wanting to put a fence in a drainage easement, am I reading it right?
Ruth Parker:† Yes, when we walk out our back door, weíreÖas soon as we step off we are right in the easement, so our whole back yard is easement. It grades right down in the drainage ditch.
Sean Owen:† Itís a lake maintenance easement, itís not a drainage easement.
Don Williams:† I got it.
Ruth Parker:† Well, they sold it to us as Lake front property, but I saw the drainage there so I kinda said well drainage front property, which is not a problem, but my main concern is my grandchildren when they come over and the other children in the neighborhood when they come play with my daughter and also my family pet. There are several reasons why we want to put up a fence and Iíve got a diagram here and if I would have known I would have made copies. ( She took a drawing up to the Board)
Don Williams:† Where is your home here?† (asking her to show him on the diagram)
Mrs. Parker was trying to show the Board where her house was located, Sean explained that when these aerials were taken the house was not built as yet.
Ruth Parker: †Here is where our sliding door is and as soon as we step off our porch we are in the easement. What I would like to do is Iíd like to put a double gate, an 8-foot gate here so if you needed to get in for anything you could bring it in through that gate. It goes back 17-feet because Iím coming up part way here so that we can have some flat area in our backyard thatís fenced. Then come out 17-feet actually from the house in the easement on this side and itís pie shaped so itís 19-feet on this side and it goes 74-feet across. There will be a 4-foot gate here (showing on the diagram) and one here, so you can get to it from any area, but if you needed to bring something in, then you would have 8-foot gates to do so.
Don Williams:† We donít maintain that easement anyway, do we Jim?
Ruth Parker:† I donít have a pool there or anything so Iím not worried about children getting in once we have the gate locked.
Don Williams:† Weíre not talking about a legal drain so the County does not maintain the easement anyway, so your only concern is that there is drainage in and out of the lake properly and if you put up a fence that will support the design, you understand what Iím saying, where the water will go ahead and freely go into the lake.
Ruth Parker:† The only thing itís going to be the wooden fence, so that he can you know and the only thing that will actually go into the ground are the posts, so everything should drain fairly easy and its very steep graded.
Don Williams:† I guess my question would be is this something that we would have to do?
Ruth Parker:† They told us we would.
Don Williams:† I guess it would because itís encroaching an easement in a plan. Okay. Do either one of the other Board members have any questions?
Both Board members stated they did not see any problem with it, as long as it wasnít locked.
Phil Baxter: I move we grant the request of the fence for the Parkers in the Drainage Easement.† Seconded by Carl Conner. Motion carried 3-0.
It was explained to her that she would need to go to the Area Plan Commission Office to finalize her request.
WILLOW POND DITCH-REDUCTION REQUEST-MORLEY & ASSOC.
Don Williams: †Next item on the agenda Morley and Assoc. requests reduction of Willow Pond Ditch, is someone here to represent that?
Jim Niemeyer:† I donít think there are any representatives.
Don Williams;† Any comments on that issue? Do we knowÖlet me just ask a question, what is the purpose of the reduction?
Jim Niemeyer: They want to build a structure, I wonítÖ..and sell the lot and currently at the present time itís 75-foot Right-of-Way and they want it reduced to an Urban Drain Right-of-Way to 25-foot.
Phil Baxter:† Is 25-feet enough for us?
Jim Niemeyer:† Well, I think it was approved in 2003. We have copies of the minutes here for September 24, 2003.
Sean Owen:† Yeah,
September 24, 2003 it was reduced inside, they own on both sides of the road on
Carl Conner:† The only thing I can say is that the Standard is 75-feet and if weíre going to continually be asked to make changes, we were asked to make changes on Real Estate on Hwy 66 and if truly we do not need 75 feet when we need to change the ordinance. Now, if we truly need the 75-foot as far as Iím concerned then we ought to be consistent with what the ordinance is and enforce the 75-foot unless itís a situation where it may create a safety hazard in an emergency type situation. It appears to me that this request is primarily directly correlated to the last request is nothing more than to increase the property value for purposes of increasing the bottom line and as far as Iím concerned I wonít support it. Now, if you come back and you say well you know 25-foot or 30-foot or 40-foot is all we really need then lets get the ordinance changed and treat everybody consistently.
Don Williams:† I believe that the State gives us the 75-feet on Legal Drains, I think thatís a State Statute when it comes toÖ.am I right there, Mr. Attorney?
David K. Zengler:† Thatís correct and you really canít change that.
Don Williams:† We can alter it to an Urban Drain and make a reduction where the growth warrants that and we feel that the drainage will still be successful and thatís the key issue as far as Iím concerned, is if the drain would still be proper and if we could still get in to clean up those drains. Those are the key issues, I think we really need to start looking hard at reductions with some of the drainage problems weíre developing with the growth. I mean, I think weíre going to have to some harder looks. Nobodyís here† I donít know if we have to address it today, table it, take it off the agenda or I guess we can deny it, whatever you gentlemen want to do.
Jim Niemeyer:† Could I add a word?
Don Williams;† Sure
This particular drainage way has been rip-rapped all the way up to 662
and goes all the way down to
Don Williams:† I guess my thought is what is your thoughts on this, since weíre discussing it, I mean I donít want to spend a lot of time since as far as Iím concerned since no one is here to represent it, but I wouldnít mind getting your thoughts there Mr. Niemeyer.
Jim Niemeyer:† Well, itís just going to be difficult to get in there and clean that and we were there after a large rain and the debris really backed up in there. We were able as it is not to get an excavator in there to remove all the debris.
Carl Conner:† And that was at the 75-foot?
Jim Niemeyer:† Yes, and I think when we did that it saved a home from being flooded.
Don Williams:† I think we have to take those into consideration, thatís why we have the laws. So there is no one here to represent this but what is your pleasure for this Board, what do you want to do gentlemen?
Phil Baxter: Based on all the information Iíve heard, I move to deny the request.
Seconded by Carl Conner. Motion passes to deny 3-0.
Don Williams: †Have all you gentlemen had a chance to look at all the claims totaling $1,069.90. Are there any questions?
Carl Conner:† I move that we approve the claims in the amount of $1,069.90.
Seconded by Phil Baxter. Motion passed to approve claims 3-0.
Don Williams:† Any other business to come before the Board?
Jim Niemeyer: I think I gave everyone a copy of the letter that I wrote to the folks at Ivy Glen.
Don Williams:† Yes, I read that and I thought that you did a very good job, I really did, I thought it was an excellent job.
Jim Niemeyer:† If you want to take further action, I think we should have a study made I think, but itís going to cost some dollars to do that and if we do also I agree with Mr. Conner that if we do that we would be setting a precedent.
Don Williams:† I would make the exception after going out there and looking at that last week, I guess, last week wasnít it, last Friday when we went? On the Ivy Glen area there, I think we need to look at its drainage out of that pond into the waterway, is thatÖ
Jim Niemeyer:† Howard-Williams Ditch.
Don Williams:† Howard-Williams Ditch, one thing we† may need to do and I donít know, since Mr. Sterchi is where he is, but I think there may be a chance for both of those lakes, are they not lakes that have been dug out for the building of I-164?
Jim Niemeyer:† The one that Ivy Glen is using that was the case and it wasnít designed necessary to be a retention pond.
Don Williams:† We might need to look on the one on the Sterchi side then and make sure dimensions and Iím not picking on Mr. Sterchi here, but there is a problem, I believe especially during a heavy rain.
Jim Niemeyer:† Well, their apparent theme is, It never happened before.
Don Williams:† Yes and I understand that, but maybe the retention pond on the Sterchi side is not as deep as it should be it may be undersized dimensions. We may have to go out there with a phantom chain with a row boat and do some depth checks to see how deep it is.
Jim Niemeyer: Weíve got the boat. But, those were the things that BLA was going to check including all the drainage plans and what affects this all has on the Howard-Williams Ditch because it requires a force to move that water and in order to build up that force the water level raises and like the case of Ivy Glen, the water comes up over the banks and you get a good rain it gets up on the drive-ways. But, fortunately nobody has been flooded yet, but there are numerous complaints of their property values are falling. I would say that the ditch that weíve cleaned out so far on Howard-Williams is running pretty nicely and weíre out for bids to clean the rest of it out and I think that will go a long way to helping this situation.
Phil Baxter:† Iíd like to say that I agree with Commissioner Conner on doing things to set precedence and also this particular storm was one that was probably a 100-year storm.
Don Williams:† Yes, the one that got so bad up in their drive-ways.
Phil Baxter:† Yes, it flooded areas, that had never been flooded before and weíve just worked in that area and I would like to see what this work is going to do as far as relieving all this. We could go in there and spend $100,000.00 and still not fix anything, if thereís nothing to fix.
Jim Niemeyer:† The different areas were built to different standards, some 25-years, some 50-year and so itís all kind of wishy-washy you† know.
Phil Baxter:† Weíre going to run into that for a long time.
Jim Niemeyer:† Maybe another thing too, maybe this is going to be a regular occurrence, but there are more and more storms, more than 50- years.
Carl Conner: You mean that are happening frequently?
Jim Niemeyer:† And bigger.
Carl Conner: Really, I wasnít aware of that.
Jim Niemeyer:† And some counties, is it Vanderburgh, are going to increase their, no itís INDOT that is going to increase their storm sizing to 75 or 100 and I thinks itís 100.
Carl Conner:† So their just going to make that a standard?
Sean Owen: †For their INDOT sizing.
Don Williams:† I tell you what, theyíre re-ditching coming down 41 and what it was and what it is now is significant as far as size. Itís 3 to 4 times larger.
Jim Niemeyer:† Everything is increased, including the impermeable surfaces but nothingís ever been done to a ditch, I mean theyíre still the same size more or less.
Don Williams:† Weíve got to have watchful eyes, particularly in this area where weíre getting such a high density of population and Iím not so sure that we shouldnít even look at going to 100-year storm for design. Something to think about, gentlemen. Anybody have anything else to come before the Board?
Carl Conner:† I think I would rather have it oversized than undersized.
Don Williams:† Yes, thatís what I mean, I would rather have a 100-year.
Carl Conner:† Doing it one time, you might as well do it right.
Don Williams:† I concur.
Phil Baxter:† And the larger they are the easier they are to keep open.
Don Williams:† We may get a howl from some of the developers.
Phil Baxter:† Well, it stands to reason the more asphalt and concrete you get the more runoff youíve got.
Carl Conner: Absolutely and weíre getting more and
more of it all the time, especially in
Don Williams: Anything else to come before this meeting? Iíll entertain a motion to adjourn.
Phil Baxter:† So moved
Carl Conner:† Second
Motion to adjourn passed 3-0.