107 W. Locust St. Courthouse 303

Boonville, IN 47601


April 26, 2006




The Warrick County Drainage Board met in regular session with President Don Williams presiding, also in attendance were Phillip H. Baxter, Vice-President; Carl Jay Conner, Secretary; Jim Niemeyer, Surveyor and David K. Zengler, Attorney for the Board.

Also in attendance was Sean M. Owen, Deputy Surveyor.


Minutes were recorded and transcribed by Cheryl D. Embry.


Audience attendance was Matt Finn, Harold Harkins and Sue Harkins.




Don Williams: Warrick County Drainage Board Meeting of April 26th now in session. The first item on the agenda is the minutes of April 12th, have you gentlemen had an opportunity to look those minutes over?


Carl Conner: I read the minutes and I didnít see anything that was inappropriate, I would move that we approve the minutes as presented.


Phil Baxter: Second.


Don Williams:Motion made and seconded with all in favor saying aye.


All voted aye. Motion passes 3-0.






Don Williams:Drainage Discussion on Field of Dreams Subdivision, a drainage problem there. Sir, do you have somebody representing that issue? If you would please come to the center and state your name and who you represent please.


Matt Finn:My name is Matt Finn, Iím the owner of Lot number one in the subdivision and I appreciate the opportunity to talk to you about this. I have photographs here ( he passed out pictures and plats to Board) and Sean was nice enough to provide you with an aerial of this lot. The address is 5832 and Lot number 1 in this Field of Dreams Subdivision, at the front of the lot there is a small retention pond and Iím not sure of the terminology so you will have to excuse me if I donít use the right terms, but there is a small retention pond that is fed on the front page of these pictures here, it is fed by this about a 4-foot culvert and all of these pictures are comparison. So the bottom picture is what is supposed to look like or what it looks like normally and the top picture is what it looks like when it rains. I would call your attention to the bottom picture and youíll notice that across the road there is a ditch that is lined with riprap that feeds straight into that and what happens when it rains, obviously you can see from the picture it floods not only across the road but it puts an enormous amount of water through there and then on the second page you can see at the top it overflows and thereís a culvert that goes underneath the driveway that is about a 24-inch pipe and obviously there is toomuch water there so it flows over the culvert. The top picture is looking back towards Hunter Road and you can see that that small retention pond is completely flooded over up to the driveway and then is overflowing that retention pond or overflowing that berm there that feeds the larger lake. Now, is you look on the next page the top picture is standing on the little bridge there over the Karn Ditch, so Iím now facing pretty much due North and you can see where the water is spilling over the little berm up there about halfway up that picture and coming down sort of making itís own channel and then it has to make a hard right to flow into the Karn Ditch and again the bottom picture is just what it looks like when itís not flooded. In that bottom picture kind of in the middle you can see the little opening there that would be the culvert under Hunter Road and then the next picture is just showing what is happening as it flows down toward that Karn Ditch, you know itís eating away, you can see thatís probably a 4-foot drop in the water and then I took a picture, obviously this is after everything had leafed out, but itís eating away and Iím sorry I donít have anything to indicate the relative size, but you wouldnít want to fall in that hole as it is pretty big. There are also a couple of pictures here, one is this is a drain pipe thatís on the bigger lake, if you look at your picture youíll see Iím no longer talking about the small retention pond out front there is a bigger lake in back and that is draining directly into Karn Ditch and in the bottom you can see what happens when the water is now flowing quite as hard, itís eroded out a good sized hole and again that hole is probably a good 4-5-feet across. Then the last picture I just wanted to show you what the ditch looks like and I took this picture mostly not to show you the water that is flowing because that is what it is supposed to do and it doesnít outflow itís banks, but thereís so much overgrowth, I guess and the bank is getting undercut. The purpose of this bottom picture is to show you that tree that is growing right on the edge of the bank that wonít be there in about another 6-months because it will fall over cause it is undercut so bad and so that is kind of a separate issue. Iíve been talking to Sean who has done a fantastic job working with me and explaining all the legal ins and outs and doing some research for me, he has done a great job. Weíve been talking about maybe getting this ditch cleaned up and all of that, but my main concern is this flooding, itís sort of my contention and again Iím not familiar as you all are with the legal requirements but I guess what Iíve been indicating to Sean is I donít know what else to do and the fact that itís not my water, itís somebody elseís and itís the County that ran this culvert that results in this uncontrolled flooding, itís not runoff from my land, so I realize Iím responsible for anything that comes off my hill or something like that you can divert that somewhere, but this isnít my water and so it seems to me and this is strictly a layman talking, it seems to me that the County has this legal drain, the Karn Ditch back here and theyíve put in or approved this thing across the road here, Iím at the bottom picture on the front page again, you know this ditch that my neighbor across the road put in that funnels all of this water onto my property, so realizing that I canít really stop the flow of water my interest here is in controlling it and the reason I believe again as a layperson that itís the Countyís problem is because again itís not my water, itís coming from somewhere else and the County has put in this culvert here that funnels it focuses it onto my land and I guess what Iím asking is, you know I would be okay with having a ditch or a drain whatever you want to call it similar to what you see in that picture across the street kind of lined with riprap that controls this volume of water and takes it on back to Karn Ditch, but right now it just runs uncontrolled and unimpeded across my property and it renders that probably two acre piece in the front there pretty much useless except for a driveway because you could never put anything on it, you couldnít pasture a horse or any livestock out there because of the uncontrollable flooding. So what I was asking Sean, who suggested that I come here to the Drainage Board is that the County again for lack of not knowing exactly what Iím asking for, but for the County to do something about it, you need to put in a ditch or do something about this flooding, so that is what Iím asking the Drainage Board to do is toÖÖÖ.


Don Williams:In just looking at this it took a little bit to put all these pictures together, but that top picture on the front page is the overpass going into the lake if Iím seeing it right?


Matt Finn:Yes, sir.


Don Williams:To me it seems like this is where the massive flooding and where the water is being impeded.


Matt Finn:Well, itís being impeded because this front small retention pond, you can refer to that aerial photograph, once that retention pond fills up it just expands in volume until it gets back to that second berm which is on the second page and what is supposed to happen is the water is supposed to flow underneath the driveway into the large lake and then out of the back of the lake and there is some pictures and thatís that piece of corrugated pipe that I showed you sticking out. But the problem is youíve got a4-foot pipe trying to get through a 2-foot pipe underneath that driveway and when it canít match that volume of course, it again, in this top picture on the second page, this is what happens, it just floods over that berm and then continues on and drops into the ditch and tries to make that hard right turn underneath that and itís a right angle turn which is not the way the water is supposed to go and it is eroding back from the ditch then and creating itís ownÖÖÖ.and again in a year or so that hole is going to be a lot further back and in my opinion it is just uncontrolled and we need someway to control it. I realize I canít stop the water from flowing but I just need some way to control it and manage it.


Don Williams: I think we got the picture as least I do, I think we all got the picture. Jim or Sean, one or the other, that small retention pond, now that is not County property though is it not?

Sean M. Owen:No, its not even part of the approved drainage plans of the subdivision.


Don Williams: Okay, to me the easy fix is simply extend the ditch instead of going into the big lake right back to Karn Ditch. I donít think the County can legally go on private property to do that.


David K. Zengler:Not unless itís a legal ditch.


Matt Finn:Iíd be happy to let you do that.


Jim Niemeyer:Could we make it a legal drain?


Don Williams:Make what a legal drain?


Jim Niemeyer:The extension from Hunter Road all the way downÖ..


Carl Conner: What is the footage there, do you know, Jim?


Jim Niemeyer:Did you measure it?




Don Williams:That would be a possibility to make that a ÖÖÖ


Matt Finn:†† Itís on this subdivision map, its approximatelyÖ..I canít read that small print.


Sean Owen:†† 626 feet.


Don Williams:Yeah, 625-26 thatís what it looks like.


Carl Conner:Jim, what is your suggestion from a standpoint of resolving the problem?


Jim Niemeyer:Well one thing I think we should do is make it a legal drain because he is right it is County water and then I would also suggest that we look at the sizing of these culverts.


Carl Conner: Do you think they may possibly need to be replaced?


Jim Niemeyer:Yes


Don Williams:Going under Hunter Road?


Jim Niemeyer: Yes


Don Williams:Thatís the first thing I saw on page one was that culvert.

Jim Niemeyer:And just have a look at Karn Ditch all the way because maybe we need to get in there and cut back the banks because its just going to continue to get wider and wider.


Matt Finn:There are several trees that are falling into the ditch because the ditch is undercut. Sean has been out there to see it so he can tell you.


Don Williams:We donít want another Allen with that hole being dug the way it is. I think we ought to go ahead and this is just my thoughts possibly making that a legal leg off of Karn Ditch. I donít remember the exact procedure, itís not the first time weíve done it butÖ..


Carl Conner:When we did the last one that Iím aware of, which was in Elberfeld a petition has to be filed with the County Commissioners and then the CountyÖÖÖ.


Don Williams:††† ††Then we come to the Drainage Board, I mean itís not an overnight thing but most of this rainy season is over and we might be able to get something done by the fall. Do you own the property where that littleÖ.who owns that property there where the little retention pond is?


Matt Finn:I do, thatís all part of the same lot.


Carl Conner: So you could give us a Hold Harmless to get in there if we would have to?


Don Williams:The quick easy way to do it is just for him to give us a Hold Harmless, I donít think we can even do that, we canít do work on private property, we just canít do that. So really our only legal choice is to make it an arm off of Karn Ditch and that would simplyÖÖ.Jim could work with you on that, bring a petition to the Board of Commissioners, which is us and then we will bring it to this Board which is just the way the legal system works. We ought to be able to say, yeah weíve got a problem lets get somebody in there with a shovel and get it done, but unfortunately you canít do that.


Carl Conner: Iíve got two questions. Jim, is any part of that ditch a legal drain?


Jim Niemeyer: No, the Karn Ditch on the picture there, Karn Ditch is.


Carl Conner:So we could if we felt like the need was there to clean out that portion, we could go ahead and do that could we not? Cause that is a legal drain. Then I guess the other question is the culvert underneath Hunter Road, your saying that that has to be replaced?


Jim Niemeyer:I donít ÖÖ.I think we ought to size it or reÖÖÖ.


Don Williams:†† Why donít you get with our Engineer, not that heís not busy enough, get with Bobby and let him take a look at it.


Carl Conner:Cause if thatís in road Right-of-Way, that part we could go ahead and take care of. So we could do about 2/3 of this without going through the legal process.


Matt Finn:†† That would be great.


Don Williams:†† Weíre talking about the culvert under Hunter Road there.


Carl Conner:Canít do anything with the plastic pipe.


Matt Finn:No and I realize that was there and I thought about resizing that, in other words in keeping with the original thought process, if I build sort of a box culvert under that driveway and resized that pipe, but then I thought all Iím doing is making the path of the water that much longer, it would be much easier to just let the water flow straight back into the ditch. Sean suggested that we might have to bring it out and I have enough property to do that, we might have to bring it out a little bit and then turn it back in so that itís not hitting that ditch hard and trying to make a right turn, we could wind it around a little bit which is fine with me. I agree that seems to be solving some of it and especially that ditch, I would like to get that cleaned out as weíre in the process of getting home plans and weíre going to build up here and having that ditch if it isÖÖlets see grind it first and then shave it back, well that is going to extend that back so that is going to affect how I put my driveway in, so if some of that could get done that would be great.


Carl Conner:Well, see and we need 75-feet from the center.


Matt Finn:Yes, right and there is plenty of room for that. But it still wouldÖÖÖ.the roadway that would have to go I have to still clear that to get around it to put in a driveway so if that were done it would make my excavation work a lot easier.


Don Williams:Now he petitions to make that area a legal drain is the first step, then weíre ready to go.


Matt Finn: Okay, Iíll work with you on that, I appreciate that.


Don Williams: ††The next move is yours sir.


Matt Finn:†† Iíll rely on your guidance.


Jim Niemeyer:Will we have to get that on the south side on your neighbors there?


Matt Finn:†† Heíll sign it.


Don Williams:†† It might nothurt to talk to that neighbor across the way because there appearsÖÖcourse it looks like he probably rip rapped that ditch and that may notÖ..if we increase that pipe that side of the ditch may not need anything.


Sean Owen:Thatís actually the outlet for Hunter Trace Subdivision, that pond there, the outlet goes into that ditch and then it comes down into that road side ditch on the other side.


Don Williams:Is the north side of Hunter Road there, your neighbor, is that lower, it looks lower. But I know pictures can beÖ.


Matt Finn:I think thatís just the way it looks, what your looking at is off the edge of the road, sure it drops down and itís lower but I donít think overall itís lower and I Ďm standing up on top of that berm.


Don Williams:†† I get out there often, so Iíll stop and look at that.


Carl Conner: Jim, if you will get with the County Engineer and size that pipe and let me know or have him let me know what size pipe is so that we can get some cost. Then Iíll get with Jack and see about going ahead and getting that improved. But it would probably be at lease 6-8 weeks before we can even get to it if we have the material available, but we get it on the schedule and then one other thing is too, I donít know if we need a motion or not, he probably needs to go ahead and get a price on doing Karn Ditch and getting it cleaned out, the legal drain part.


Don Williams:We can just do that by consensus and how do you feel about them going ahead and getting prices on Karn Ditch?


David K. Zengler:†† Sure


Don Williams:†† You have our consensus to go ahead and do that.


Jim Niemeyer:Okay


Carl Conner:Sounds like your in business.


Matt Finn:Thank you very much, I appreciate the opportunity.


Don Williams:Thank you for bringing this to our attention we appreciate that. Next on the agenda is claims.




Don Williams:†† Have you all had a chance to look at the claims?


Carl Conner:Yes, I looked at them and I donít have any questions.


Phil Baxter:I move we pay the claims in the amount of $12,562.38.


Carl Conner:Second

Don Williams:Motion made and seconded to pay the claims, all in favor say aye.


All three voted aye, motion carried 3-0.


Don Williams:Any other business to come before the Board? Folks, do you have any business?




Sue Harkins:I donít have any business, I just come for an update on the Ivy Glen, how weíre coming.


Jim Niemeyer:Well, your going to be disappointed, but weíve finished the second leg and you probably already know that, cleaned the ditch out all the way up to Deaconess and weíre ready to go on the West side of the road and then finish it. At the moment we are just full up with projects and Iíve got everybody working that I can put to work. It will probably be a little drier when we go but weíve got to do it, weíve got to get it cleaned out as itís got a lot of silt in it and that will take us all the way up to Ivy Glen, no I mean Colonial Hills Subdivision. That should really make some difference, I think we have made some difference already.


Don Williams:You have made some, I think you already realize that.


Sue Harkins:Yes, at least we havenít had as large a rain but at least the lake stayed in its bank.


Don Williams:†† Even that last large rain we had like 8 inches in two days there which is the largest weíve had and it didnítÖÖ.


Sue Harkins:†† Right, but it was over a period of two days which is good too. Itís a lot of rain yes, but anyway thatís the only way I know to get an update is to come up here or call.


Jim Niemeyer:Just call, I still get up there every once in a while just to take a check, but I never see anybody.


Sue Harkins:†† I know you do, I see you and the only other question I have, you know I did say when you were talking about the trees falling in that other ditch well you know thatís happening on our side of the street, the bank is falling in on the side where the street is.


Jim Niemeyer:You mean that faces the water, yeah I noticed that.


Sue Harkins:†† And itís pretty bad in at least two areas.


Jim Niemeyer:Whatís happening is thereísÖ.its an east west street, itís the southern most street in their subdivision that runs east west, when that lake fills up and it gets up there kind of high and if there is any wind and wave action it is beginning to erode that up. So I noticed on the east end of that there are gabions in there that were set in there and I think maybe for that purpose to prevent that from eroding. Iíll have to go back and take a look at that and see there may need to be rip rap or something put in there to prevent it from eroding out.


Sue Harkins:On the east end, it has been rip rapped partially and then the property around the corner, she had hers rip rapped and I was willing to see about rip rapping our line the rest of the way up however itís a lot of space of other frontage and up west is the end where you know like those large rocks thatís up there, there are some of them thatís falling in, so your right the waves, when the wind blows when itís a storm, itís always the waves come towards that side and so thatís a concern you know cause eventually that street is concrete and that would be a bad thing. Thank you so much. I know youíre busy this time of the year.


Jim Niemeyer:Well, come down and see our super project, itís there by Mulzer Stone and youíll see. We have to fill up Grand Canyon.


Carl Conner: How many tons of stone are we putting in it?


Jim Niemeyer:About 6,000 tons.


Don Williams:†† Does anybody else have anything for the Board? Iíll entertain a motion to adjourn.


Carl Conner: So moved


Phil Baxter:Second


Motion was made and seconded to adjourn, all voted aye. Motion passed 3-0


Don Williams:†† We are adjourned.