MAY 10, 2006



107 W. Locust St. Courthouse Suite 303

Boonville, In.47601





The Warrick County Drainage Board met in regular session with President Don Williams presiding, also in attendance were Phillip H. Baxter, Vice-President; Carl Jay Conner, Secretary; Jim Niemeyer, Surveyor and David K. Zengler, Attorney for the Board.

Also in attendance was Sean M. Owen, Deputy Surveyor.


Minutes were recorded and transcribed by Cheryl D. Embry.


Audience attendance was Nick Cirignano, Mark Faris, Pam Faris, Mark Chamness, Bill Bivins, Martin Scheoer, Ron Bacon, Mike Morris, Sharon McIntosh and Katie Geilshauser.




Don Williams:Warrick County Drainage Board Meeting of May 10, 2006 come to order please. The first item on the agenda is the approval of minutes of April 26, 2006, have you two gentlemen had a chance to read the minutes.


They both answered that they had.


Don Williams:Whatís your pleasure?


Carl Conner: I would move that we accept the minutes for April 26, 2006 as presented.


Don Williams:Do I have a second to approve the minutes?


Phil Baxter:Second


Don Williams:†† Motion made and seconded all those in favor say aye.


All voted aye. Motion carried 3-0.


Don Williams:Next item, Allen Ditch, Mr. Surveyor?


Jim Niemeyer: We have bid opening for that project and we have three bids to open and Mr. Zengler has the envelopes.


David K. Zengler:This is Blankenburger Brothers Inc., a total bid of $195,480.00.


Don Williams:$195,480.00?


David K. Zengler:Yes, it has other attachments.Stemaly Excavating, Inc., total cost, it looks like $295,420.00.


Don Williams:$295,420.00?


David K. Zengler:Yes and from Bigge Excavating, total cost $103,000.00.


Carl Conner: Was there just three?


David K. Zengler:Just three.


Don Williams:Did you have a pre-bid meeting?


Jim Niemeyer:†† Yes, we did.


Don Williams:Were all three parties there?


Jim Niemeyer:Yes.


Phil Baxter:Did all three look at the same job?


Jim Niemeyer: Yes, we all almost fell in the same hole at the same time. I would recommend that we take these under advisement until we have a chance to go through and look and make sureÖÖ.


David K. Zengler:I think that would be a good idea with all the addendums and so on.


Don Williams:I would entertain a motion to do so, with that difference I think we need to look at all three packages.


Phil Baxter:I agree especially with the difference in prices.


Don Williams:Do I have a motion to take the bids of Allen Ditch under advisement?


Phil Baxter:So moved.


Carl Conner: Second


Don Williams:Motion made and seconded to take the bids of Allen Ditch under advisement, all in favor say aye.


All three members voted aye. Motion carried 3-0.




Don Williams:Drainage Plan Approvals, Jim, Amber Hills.


Jim Niemeyer:Mark, would you state your name.


Mark Chamness:Mark Chamness from Chamness Land Surveying.


Jim Niemeyer: Mark is requesting no retention for this project.


Don Williams:Have you looked at it?


Jim Niemeyer:Yes


Don Williams:Is that kind of a little knoll there on the left side going toward Yellow Banks there right?


Mark Chamness:Yes, going down towards that creek.


Don Williams:See the difference in elevations 296, the only thing that concerns me is that it comes back up pretty high on this line here. Where does it drain off toÖthe west, where does it go to? Cause it looks to me like its going to come this wayÖ..whatís behind you here?


Mark Chamness:Just woods.


Don Williams:Is there a ditch back there or drainage back there orÖÖ?


Mark Chamness: (Mark points out on map where it is going) It comes back this way here and all drains toward this creek.


Don Williams:Have you looked at this, Jim?


Jim Niemeyer:Yes


Don Williams:What are your thoughts?


Jim Niemeyer:I think it will be fine. Sean checked all the drainage calculations and they are all right.


Sean Owen:Mark had submitted some calculations and they all seemed to be sufficient. Itís not 2 Ĺ acre lots but they are pretty large lots and the slope of the land, I think it should be okay.


Don Williams:I just didnít remember if there was nothing but woods behind there or not.

Sean Owen:Yes, its pretty much all woods, to the south there is houses but to the west and the north itís just all wooded.


Carl Conner:Iím glad you brought that up the size, minimum size is 2 Ĺ right?


Don Williams: 2 Ĺ without drainage.


Carl Conner:And all these are under 2 Ĺ and isnít that a part of our County Ordinance, that it has to be a minimum of 2 Ĺ?


Jim Niemeyer:Yes it is.


Carl Conner: That answered my question.


Phil Baxter:Are they on sewers?


Mark Chamness:Yes, they are on sewers.


Carl Conner: They are on what kind of sewer?


Mark Chamness:Pigeon Township.


Don Williams:That new sewer system up there.


Carl Conner:Okay, sanitary sewer?


Mark Chamness:Yes, sanitary sewer. There is also a letter from Don Phillips, who is a manager for that facility stating that they would have the capacity to handle those lots.


Don Williams:Part of this is in a special flood hazard area?


Mark Chamness:Along that creek, just right there at that creek, what you see.


Don Williams:Thatís the special flood area?


Mark Chamness:Yes, just that portion there at the creek.


Don Williams: Do you have any questions, Commissioner Conner?


Carl Conner: No, I think he answered my questions.


Don Williams:Commissioner Baxter?††† What is the will of the Board?


Phil Baxter:I move we approve the drainage plans for Amber Hill Estates.


Don Williams:Do I have a second?(pause)Youíre comfortable with this, right, Jim?

Jim Niemeyer: Yes


Don Williams:††† ††Carl, do I have a second?Iíll second the motion, all in favor say aye.


Phil Baxter: Aye


Don Williams:Aye motion carries, is that one nay or one abstention?


Carl Conner:one abstention.


Don Williams:Thatís two yeas and one abstention. Are you next Mr. Bivins? Have you all had a chance to look these over?




Bill Bivins:Bill Bivins, Engineer, this is phase 3 of Otter Creek Subdivision and they are all 2 Ĺ acre lots.


Don Williams:Questions from the Board?


Carl Conner: You say everything is minimum 2 Ĺ?


Don Williams:Yes, some are a little larger, what is the pleasure of the Board?


Phil Baxter: I move we approve the drainage plans for Otter Creek Estates.


Carl Conner:Iíll second for discussion purposes.


Don Williams:Motion has been made and seconded. Mr. Bacon, do you want to address this issue? I have a note here that you want to talk about it.


Ron Bacon: For the record Iím Ron Bacon and I live at 1466 Dogwood Lane which adjoins the phase 3 corner of the Otter Creek Subdivision. I live at the low level and have property and the back part of my property is in the flood plain which is in the ditch. Iím not sure if youíve seen the plat, I have not seen the one that you have. The drainage is not being assessed here that I am aware of and nothing has been looked at. Thereís nothing they have been doing. Theyíre saying according to the lots and I donít know if I can agree or disagree with that because Iím not an engineer. I did talk to Jim about it and they said nothing was put in because they felt there was nothing for the lots themselves and I wonít disagree with that, but all of the water from those lots and all of the water from Dogwood Lane, all come through my property. There is a ditch at the very back, I have one acre on the east side of it which is adjacent to Phase 3 here and the rest of my property is on the west side, so all of the west side water comes down from Dogwood Lane and all of this water comes down from the backside because I am at the lowest level. What I am concerned about is there are no problems now and I know that if everything was left as is there would be no changes in the drainage as it is now but what I am concerned about is what is going to happen with the improvements and what the lots are going to do and I donít think anyone has looked at that. There is no sanitary sewer cause they do have to have the 2 Ĺ acres to take care of that which they do have, any changes at all does change a lot of the water pattern there, just putting a driveway on my west side changed the ruts through the 5 acres that I have now and I have one large one which we have already rip rapped which took us a whole summer to complete and I have two more forming just due to a driveway that was put in on an easement that was already there because it did change the water course and I tried to address that before and it does take a long time to create this because itís not a drain that happens all the time, it just happens when we have the big storms and then it creates more problems. So weíre working on those on the west side and now Iím concerned with whatís going to happen on the east side of the drainage. The lower part of that, not the corner of the phase 3 itís just the very edge if Iím not mistaken but the next one over plus half of my back lot is in a flood plain. That is the lowest level so all of the water runs through there and the water has been up as far as ĺ of the way up to the house and its been very close with the storms weíve had and that is my concern is what is going to happen with any changes and whatís going to happen in the future. So that is what Iím concerned about and I just felt that it was not being addressed and I didnít want it to be overlooked cause I am at the bottom, so anything that happens up here is going to change things. I know theyíre going to have sewer, theyíre going to have drainage, theyíre going to build homes and Iím not against that, itís not my problem here, my sole concern is the drainage is going to create more problems cause the ditch is washing that is there now and thereís problems with it thatís going to have to be addressed in the future it is starting to wash out part of my property, but itís not a legal drain so the County is not responsible for that, that is something that the landowners and myself and Mr. Pemberton and so forth will have to address in the future, but thatís starting to happen due to the changes that have gone on in the last 10 to 15 years. Itís washed out to whereÖ.we are fenced in, all but one acre is completely fenced in by a chain length fence that was put in there before I bought the property but the ditch now is washing away into the fence and underneath of that so Iím having to address that. Iím losing property due to the drainage now and so Iím concerned about that, so this is where Iím bringing my concerns.


The Board thanked Mr. Bacon.


Don Williams:Youíre the engineer, what do you have to say about his concerns?


Bill Bivins:Typically when you go from a forest or a cultivated field into a yard the runoff is reduced by the grass and that is one of the reasons why the 2 Ĺ acre rule is there is no drainage retention required because you are actually decreasing the rate of runoff and this would be the case in this situation.


Don Williams:That is the way I understood it, I just wanted toÖ.Do you understand what he is saying, Mr. Bacon?


Ron Bacon:I understand if that is what is put in there, I agree with that but these are all woods and the homes that are being built in there naturally there wonít be very much grass as it is all wooded lots.


Bill Bivins:Yeah, but what we do disturb will be put back in with grass which will decrease the runoff in that area andweíre not changing any drainage patterns, the patterns will remain the same.


Don Williams:Are there any questions?


Carl Conner:Jim, have you been out there and looked at this?


Jim Niemeyer:No, I havenít.


Carl Conner:So you donít really have an opinion in regards toÖÖ.


Jim Niemeyer:No


Don Williams:Do you want to look at it before we take action on it?


Jim Niemeyer:Yes


Don Williams:Would you like to go out with the Surveyor and look at this before we make a motion?


Phil Baxter:I would like to yes.


Don Williams:Okay, do I have a motion to table for a period of two weeks?


Carl Conner:I so move


Bill Bivins:Question QuestionDoes this affect my subdivision meeting tonight for approval?


Don Williams:†† At the Area Plan? It could usually the drainage has to be done first before they will approve it.


Carl Conner: We have a motion on the floor to table, I think we have a second, am I correct, so I would call for a vote.


Don Williams:Okay motion made and seconded, call for a vote all in favor say aye.


All voted aye 3-0 motion carried.


Don Williams:Sorry about the inconvenience, Mr. Bivins


Carl Conner:It will be back on in two weeks, the next meeting, the 24th.


Bill Bivins:Yeah, but thatís a month later for me though.


Don Williams:Drainage complaints. Faris drainage complaint.




Nick Cirignano: Hi, once again this is Nick Cirignano and Mark Faris and his wife, Pam in connection with our complaint regarding the culvert located near Victoria National Maintenance Barn.


Don Williams:You just want an update of where we are at on that orÖ..?


Nick Cirignano:Yes, we were a little disappointed that it had taken so long for Victoria to respond, I guess a letter went out in the beginning of April and I checked Monday with the surveyorís office, but I talked to Mr. Zengler before the meeting and my understanding is thatÖ..


Don Williams:They have responded and we are looking at the size that needs to be and our next step is to go out and get the cost and then go back to Victoria National and thatís where weíre at and that should happen, when do you think youíll have those Mr. Niemeyer?


Jim Niemeyer:Might have aÖ..well, not until Bobby returns, Bobby is off.


Don Williams:Our Engineer has been ill with Bronchitis and as soon as he gets back weíllÖ.


Jim Niemeyer: He will either be back tomorrow or Friday.


Mark Faris:One of the questions I had before is the linkage between the information to put a permitted culvert in and the removal of the obstruction which is a non-permitted culvert. What it seems to us as the course that the Board is going now is to leave the unpermitted obstruction in during the period of time that you work on how big the replacement should be and I would like to ask the Board to consider separating those two concepts of having an obstruction that is illegal in the County drain now and a replacement for that at some point in the future. You have a perfectly good permitting process to put crosses on County regulated ditches but this continues to cause problems for us and will I think regardless of what the results of your research will be removed, I think everyone is kind of come to a conclusion that it was not permitted, itís illegal and that directly behind it, 50-feet behind it there are two 8-foot culverts with this 36-inch culvert causing our problems. So I guess I would like to request that the County require removal during the period that we are researching what kind of a placement. I would also like to point out that there is a perfectly serviceable road across Hines Ditch for Victoria to use that goes across two 8-foot culverts which they could use during the time that the research is being done on what kind of new culvert system should go in there. So that would be something that I would like to request the Board because it makes sense to remove the non-permitted obstruction during the period of time that weíre having rains all the time and then the replacement could be done to cross that ditch when the calculations were finished.


Nick Cirignano:The problem we have is the time frame that and reviewing that letter it sounded as if Victoria National contemplated this might take quite some time to sort all this out. You know in the interim, you know it is spring time and who knows when the next storm is going to be that causes a real problem for us.


Don Williams:Nobody apparently knows exactly when that culvert which really isnít all that relevant, we know that it wasnít there in 1995, but we know itís there now so and like you say it was not permitted so what are your thoughts on this, gentlemen? I think we need to go out and address that with Victoria to make sure they do have access to their building and if thatís the case we might want to consider removing that obstruction. I think its something we need to consider.


Nick Cirignano:And in fact as background information, we spoke with some engineers just to see what the cost and time frame for just removal not necessarily replacement because we wanted to see what kind of a burden we were putting or asking the County to undertake and the engineers indicated they thought it would be about a Ĺ day project with a backhoe just to get that out of there and to get the ditch back to where it would be had that never been installed.


Don Williams:Thatís probably about right.


Carl Conner:So I guess my question is would you be satisfied if we just had the culvert taken out and just have an open ditch?


Nick Cirignano:Absolutely


Mark Faris:Absolutely, that would solve our problem, as the problem is the 36-inch culvert stops the water and backs it up into the lake.


Carl Conner: And you know that for a fact, that that would resolve the issue.


Mark Faris:Yes, we had Jim Morley come out and take a look at it and he identified that as the cause.


Nick Cirignano:And it stands to reason because if you look where it flows into the 36-inch culvert, then just further down the stream are two twin 8-foot culverts, it stands to reason when you see the water backing up at the 36-inch obviously itís not backing up at the twin 8-foot culverts.


Mark Faris:I think we provided photographs of that back up last time we were here.

Carl Conner:I would move that if there is a request for us to do anything today that we would table that request, Iíd like to go out there again with Jim and take a look at it and weíll see if we can get it back on the agenda by May 24th if you think thatís possible.


Don Williams:We can probably individually let the Surveyor know once we look at it without having to do it at open meeting, I believe. If we wanted to could we not orÖ..?


David Zengler:Yes, the statute gives the Surveyor the authority to clean an obstruction from a regulated ditch so you wouldnít even have to actually have a vote.


Don Williams:So, weíll look at it and pass it on to the Surveyor and hopefully weíll get something done for you real quick.


Mr. Cirignano and Mr. Faris both thanked the Board.


Don Williams:Okay, Carl you had made a motion to table that, so I have a second.


Phil Baxter: Second.


Don Williams:Motion made and second all in favor say aye.


Three ayes, motion passes 3-0.


Don Williams:Okay, Mr. Morris? Please state your name and address and if youíre representing anybody other than yourself, who.




Mike Morris:My name is Mike Morris, I live at 8911 Framewood Drive, Newburgh and Iím representing Framewood Estates. Weíve got a problem out there with drainage that you claim is our problem, but in the last few improvements that the Drainage Board has made have compounded our problem. We went from a status of having water that was confined in our ditch out there to where now itís flowing in the streets. Weíve let people put drains that go out into the street thatís bringing horse manure down into our streets and back a couple of years ago we offered suggestions to the Board, but they werenít recognized. So now weíve got a major problem out there and somebody is going to get hurt or killed and nobody seems to want to recognize this. Weíve got a few pictures here that we have taken as well as some of the people back here that live in Framewood that areÖÖ(Mr. Morris walked away from the microphone and was inaudible).


Don Williams: Did we notÖ..it seems to me we talked about this a few years back and the answer we had was putting in a ditch on the south side there I believe but we couldnít get any easements or grants to do that if I recall.


Mike Morris: Well, see the problem with that ditch thatís in there right now is weíve got a 10-foot easement on each side, Hickory side and Framewood Drive side has got 20-foot back there and that ditch is run on private property. It is outside the easement and now they are wanting to bring in more water and run it down that ditch and itís already flooding half up in our yards right now and if we take on Lincoln Avenue and Bell Road, those areas there your going to double that amount of water and our house isnít going to be worth a plug nickel. At the time that they went down with the 3-foot pipe on Lincoln Avenue we offered suggestions to them at the time and they laughed at them. We told them that that pipe the first rain they had it would float out and they laughed at us and the next day it rained and it floated out. But if they would have took Ö..Mr. Connerís lived there he knows how it is. But at the time that they put that 3-foot pipe in there on Lincoln Avenue if they would have went over to Dentonís place where the wooded area is where there is a ditch already in there that comes off of Basswood and brought that out to Lincoln Avenue and brought it into that 3-foot drain that would have alleviated some of our problem. If they would go up there on that 10-foot easement off of Framewood Estates and cut the ditch back up there like itís supposed to be cut and then go down there and put a drain in the curb of Framewood Drive to catch some of the water and bring some of the water out from behind those houses back there into a drain and run that back up to Framewood I think you would have your problem solved and so would we. But the way it is right now, the cars are coming down that street and when they hit two places in the road there where the water is completely over the road, thereís one or two inches there some of them have got older cars and everything you know with the brake shoes on them and theyíre not going to stop, theyíre going to go clear across that road and if its raining early in the morning, 7:30 in the morning there are school buses out there waiting to pick up about 20 kids out of Halston and they are going to have a collision. The water situation with the horses, letting the horses up there, everyone of us enjoy the horses, we like them and like to watch them play in the field and we donít have a problem with is dumping their sewage down on us.


Carl Conner:I think we have a picture of that.


Mike Morris: And Iíve got something else to show you too.


Carl Conner:(talking to other Board members) the one with the plastic pipe, thatís bringing the horse manure down into their neighborhood.


Don Williams:Whoís got the pipe, who put the pipe in?


Mike Morris:Here is what we are getting on our streets (showing a container with very brown water) this is after it dries up (showing††††††††††††††††††††††††††† ) Iíve got a sample here that you can take and send off to see how much sewage is in it. But there are kids who play out there and there are kids on Frame Drive waiting for a school bus at 7:30 in the morning and when this stuff dries up which actually is very seldom, but it sends up such a cloud it is like somebody taking dirt and throwing it up in the air. You think weíre pissed off, wait until I go down to Hawthorne and tell them that their kids are breathing this shit.


People in the audience started talking and telling their story.


Don Williams:If anybody wants to talk, hold it, excuse me, if anybody wants to talk you come up give us your name and address, just donít talk out, please come forward so we know who we are talking to.


Mike Morris:We can ignore this problem you know and like I said Iíve been here before you know, but this is the first time Iíve come to the Drainage Board in a couple of years because I thought we had our problem solved. But the problem being solved was letting Don Gore come in on my property and rearranging that ditch, he put it solely on my property and the utilities theyíre in the middle of the easement, instead of being one side or the other theyíre right smack in the middle. Why the Planning Commission let them get by with that I donít understand that, they knew that the plot wasÖthat was the area where they were going to bring the majority of the water down through there and yet they let the utilities go right in the center of the easement. It donít make good planning sense you know, if youíre going to have that much water coming down through there, if I bermed up one side of my property with railroad ties or so, I could put that transformer under water and I told SIGECO that, they told me, well do it and weíll fight over it after you get finished with it. Iíve had my say so if anybody else has anything to say.



Don Williams:Do you have a phone number Mr. Morris?


Mike Morris:Yes, my phone number is 490-0621 or 449-6868. We are willing to work with you in any way you know, we had that excellent opportunity when they were putting them pipes in down there on Frame Road, they put 30-foot pipes in there and they took care of all Frame Road going down there and why they didnít come into Framewood Estates and take care of our problem, I donít understand that. It would have been very very easy.


Carl Conner:Mike, when everyone is through expressing their concerns I will address that issue in regards to why it wasnít taken care of, but Iíll just wait until their all completed. Thanks Mike.


Sharon MacIntosh:My name is Sharon MacIntosh and I live at 8966 Framewood Drive. I just wanted everyone to know that itís not just when it rains that the problem is probably 350 days a year thereís water so deep that I canít jump it to get my mail, so when it freezes, I fall down trying to get my mail, itís like a skating rink and coming in and out on and off the road I just bring it into the garage and out my driveway where my children play ball. Now that I realize whatís in it, even if it was clean water itís still unsafe.


The Board thanked her.


Katie Geilshauser:Hi, my name is Katie Geilshauser and I live at 8977 Framewood Drive, I live across the street from Sharon. My concerns also are the un-cleanliness of the water that is constantly in our street and as I was trying to say before when we get a hard rain especially that water comes up into our drive-way about 6-8 feet and my children play in that driveway. They like to play with their chalk or basketballs or ride their bikes and that is also being tracked into my garage and then into my house and as you can see my children are so little, so theyíre still playing on the floor and playing with cars and color crayons on the floor, so I feel like itís a constant health hazard at my house and it raises a lot of concern for me. The other day I was walking my son from the school bus and back to our house, the school bus lets off at the corner of Lincoln and Framewood and it was dry which was amazing that it was actually dry in front of our house in the rain gutter, but he wouldnít even walk in it because he said ďmom, thatís all dried up horse manureĒ and he would not even walk in it, so you know for a little boy nine years old who cannot even play in his own driveway that is pretty sad, so I do have a lot of concerns and I agree with everything Mike Morris said and we are willing to work with the city but we really want to have this issue resolved as soon as possible.


The Board thanked her.


Don Williams:Anyone else?Mr. Conner, you had an explanation you wanted to give them.


Carl Conner:First Iíd like to say that I think that the present Board of County Commissioners and the previous Board of County Commissioners have recognized that people in Framewood are at least the more into Framewood where you all presently live that there is a drainage problem. When I first came on this Board in 2001 your homeowners association had already met I think on several occasions with and Mike you can correct me if Iím wrong, had already met with the previous Commissioners to work out this issue so this issue is not something that happened in the year 2001 or it happened yesterday. This is a problem thatís been ongoing probably ever since the subdivision was developed and as time has went on with the streets and the drainage becoming old and obsolete we have compounded the problem, with that being said we did establish basically a relationship with the homeowners association and I was kind of appointed to present the County Commissioners and we had different proposals drafted and developed in regards to what we felt like from an engineering perspective that would resolve those problems. Some of the issues however that were raised at that point and time was that there was not and I think I recall making the comment to Mike sometime ago that first and foremost the neighbor association had differences of opinion and issues in regards to how that drainage situation should be resolved, because I had people coming to me and telling me that they had no problems. And I will tell you this that where I lived, I lived at the corner of Framewood and Old Hickory, we never had a drainage problem. We didnít have a sump pump underneath our house or anything, the drainage off of that hill drained down Old Hickory and we never had a problem. But to resolve your problem was going to involve the residents of a number of other people that lived in that area who said that they had no problems and they did not want anything done in that neighborhood. Secondly, it was very costly I think and I had looked for my file Mike when I noticed that you were on the agenda today, but I think that the cost to do the sewers in there and drainage correctly to resolve the majority of those problems, the cost was in excess of $200,000.00 and that was engineering costs that was given to us. The County didnít have $200,000.00 plus to fix that issue as the way it should be so that was one of the other obstacles we had. Now, in regards to the situation of the drainage off of the hill relative to the horses, I was out there a couple of weeks ago and Mike you may be aware of the fact that I was out there. I talked to Don Parks and I went back and I looked at that situation and I have discussed that situation with Jim Niemeyer, the County Surveyor and we are going to contact the City of Newburgh, because Mike, I would assume that somewhere along that street the City of Newburgh has a sewer line, do they not?


Mike Morris answered yes.


Carl Conner: What we are going to do is weíre going to go back out there and see what the options are to eliminate that problem cause I wouldnít want my children playing in that and we will work with the City of Newburgh and Iím sure they will be cooperative and weíre going to look at some proposals and price those proposals out to address that need. Now, back to what I perceive as other problems relative to drainage, if you would like to get your home owners association together and have a meeting at some point and time, Iíll be more than happy to come out to that meeting and if you can resolve the issues between the members of that home owners association, then I feel quite confident that this Board would be willing to work with you all once again in attempting to address all of those drainage needs out there, but we canít become involved in a fight or any litigation relative to maybe someone living on Old Hickory that wants the work done and someone living on Framewood that doesnít want the work done. And I think you understand what Iím saying, Mike.


Mike Morris:I think the problem exists with the home owners association is mostly the people that were elected was in Framewood Estates I and here we are in Framewood Estates II, weíve got the problem of theirs, you know, what theyíve got comes down onto us and they donít have a problem weíve got it.


Carl Conner: Right, and thatís what Iím saying though, Mike is that if we need to resolve this problem by going on residents in I if you want to call it 1 or 2 or 3Ö..


Mike Morris:We want to go with 2.


Carl Conner: Right, but if we have to go on real estate over in this phase I, well then we have to bring these people on Board.


Mike Morris:Well, hereís whatÖwe had a problem back longago with drainage, you know and the County Commissioners at that time was Keith Shelton, Paul Gore and them and theylied to us. Now wait a minute before you say itÖÖÖÖ.


Carl Conner:The only thing I want to say is Mike, is we canít be held responsible for them in your opinion lying to you.


Mike Morris:†† It took timeÖno, they kept us hanging for well over a year, they told us that there was no County Ordinances at that time to protect us with that subdivision and we went along, we hunted and we scrounged and we looked everywhere we could look because we thought, you know Warrick County wouldnít be that dumb to let just people come in here and just do anything they want to do because if they didnít you know weíd have $30,000.00 shacks in there with $150,000.00 homes and stuff like that so to make a long story we found the ordinances. Iíve got a copy of it and when I presented it to Anthony Long and his troop up there I told them, well I appreciate your buying my house for me cause Iím going to slap a lawsuit on you that wonít quit, Paul Gore and Skelton turned around and looked at Anthony Long and Anthony Long said ďHeís got YouĒ.

So then we went back and they said let us talk to Don Gore and weíll tell him to either solve that problem or he wouldnít build in Warrick County again, but three months later he was building again. But the thing of it is, this has all taken time and it took a lot of time and in that time you know, we never got anything settled, which Don Gore walked away from this with money in his pockets that he didnít have to put in that subdivision that was designed that he assumed those responsibilities original developers brought to this commission here, not you, but your predecessors and said this is what we planned for the subdivision. Now, the people you replaced let them get by with it, they never got out and checked this stuff out if they would have they would have stopped it, and would have said hey you either do it or else. I think thatís what we elected you for and weíre not getting that cooperation. We didnít get it and when we brought up issues, the only time that we tried to stop people from doing and going in there and making it right was when we seen that they were going to bring more water into our subdivision from Lincoln Avenue and from Bell Road, which would have been disastrous for us. We would have had water up to here, we wouldnít have to buy a swimming pool.


Carl Conner:Mike, maybe you misunderstood my comment. My comment wasnít directed at you and your group that want to do something to rectify it, my comment was directed to the obstacle of individuals that live in that community or in that area that for us to be able to take a comprehensive approach and to try to resolve all of those drainage matters there are opposed to us doing anything and that is when I made the comment to you, Mike, and I basicallyÖI think what I said to you was if you could internallyÖÖ.


Mike Morris:That we would cooperate.


Carl Conner:Well, if you internally would get the cooperation of those people that we need in there, then we would be more than happy, I mean we spent hours, one of the meetings that we had in here and Iím sure you were hereÖ..Was Don Parks president of your home owners association at one time?


Mike Morris:We didnít elect anybody. I mean these people took it upon themselves to elect themselves and they represented themselves, they didnít represent us.


Carl Conner:Okay,but they were here and I know that that one meeting went on for several hours because I think that we had 3 or 4 engineering options that we explained to the group that was here in regards to what we felt like needed to be done. We also said that we didnít have the monies available to do it, we threw out the question of sharing possibly the cost to the people in the subdivision sharing the cost with us. There was a number of things, but I guess what Iím saying Mike, is this. That if you can get your neighbors together and you want to meet with us you let me know when and where if itís in the evenings and Iíll be more than happy to meet with you with the consensus of the other two members.


Don Williams: You understand that only one of us can meet with you.


Mike Morris:No, I didnít know that.


Carl Conner:I will bring the Engineer out and weíll bring all the engineering designs that we had, that we did when we started meeting with this other group from there in 2001 plus.


Mike Morris:Well, see hereís what I probablyÖI think probably happened. I think you got Framewood Estates I in there and most of them in there seen that the water might be impacted on their property a little bit, you know by going out one of their ditches and they probably didnít want that. But I think that the problem can be solvedsimply by going up there where Bayberry and going out that ditch up there where Dentonís, I donít know who owns it now, but Dentonís used to own it, and all it is is woods. Itís just woods you know and its setting there and there is a ditch that meanders right out to Lincoln Avenue and that would take the majority of the water from upper State from Framewood Estates I out of coming down onto Framewood Estates II.


Carl Conner:And if I recall Mike, that was one of the engineering options that we were given was, I think maybe it was a little higher than Bayberry, but that it would run through there down into Frame Road.


Mike Morris:Now Pat lives over there and sheís got a problem, you canít get out in her backyard half the time and that is the same way with Parks and the rest of them and if they took that ditch and where I donít know what the old man was that lived there that died, but his family took it over and they went back in there and they developed that subdivision back in there that consisted of about 2-3 houses back there thatís got a retaining ditch in there. But, if they cut a ditch back in there and ran that out to Lincoln Avenue and I understand that Lincoln Avenue youíre going to make some improvements on that pretty soon.


Carl Conner: Lincoln Avenue is scheduled for major improvements.


Mike Morris: If they took a ditch and ran it back there and ran the ditch from behind Patís house and the rest of them back in there and ran that out into that existing ditch out there and ran it out to Lincoln Avenue you would take care of all that water coming out of there.


Carl Conner: Well, one of the things that we will do immediately is Jim and I will be out there next week to take a look at that drainage off of the hill.


Mike Morris:If you could make it Tuesday or Wednesday Iíll be there or if you donít want me there thatís fine too.


Carl Conner: No,no thatís fine, I mean I donít know when it will be, but if itís on Tuesday or Wednesday, I know where you live Iíll come over and get you. But we are going to come out and take a look at that and like I said we are going to get with the City of Newburgh and try to come up with some solution to that because that is not only a water problem. It is also a health issue there and I donít even know who put that pipe in, who put that pipe in?


Mike Morris:It was done privately. Itís a drainage violation. Jim canít you just come out there and tell them that itís a violation of the City Ordinance and it is.

Jim Niemeyer: Whoís property does that lie on? Is it on the East owner?


Mike Morris:Itís not on an easement, wait a minute, Yeah it is on an easement, it sure is. It is still a violation of a County Ordinance and tell them to cease and desist on it.


Jim Niemeyer: Who does that belong to? I mean is it the house to the east of the pipe or the west of the pipe?


Mike Morris:I think itís the house to the east and west, I think they jointly did it because they had so much water coming down in there that they thought that would alleviate some of the water coming in there and it wouldnít flood their garages and stuff like that.


Carl Conner: Okay, Mike, Jim and I will be out there next week some time and if itís on a Tuesday or Wednesday, Jim remind me to go over and get Mike.


Don Williams:Mr. Morris, I will also give you a call and try and get over there and have you show me, Iím a visual person, so if you would and Iíll get there as soon as I can.


Carl Conner: But if you can get those neighbors together, you let me know.


Mike Morris:I think theyíve had enough.


Carl Conner: Weíll meet with you again and Iíll bring the County Engineer and Jim Niemeyer and weíll bring all the proposals with us that we had before.


Mike Morris:Weíveonly got about a 7-foot fall from Old Hickory down to Frame Road.


Don Williams:And this may actually be a Commissionerís issue and not a Drainage Board issue cause weíre not talking about a legal drain here, just so you know that we mayhave to change it to a 4:00 meeting instead of the 3:00 meeting. But, weíll get with you.Thank you.


Carl Conner:Thanks, Mike




Don Williams:The next item on the agenda is claims, have you gentlemen had a chance to look at the claims totaling $10,563.11?


Phil Baxter:I move we pay the claims.


Carl Conner:Second


Don Williams:Motion made and second, all in favor say aye.


All three voted aye.


Don Williams:Motion carries 3-0. Any other business to come before the Board?

Will entertain a motion to adjourn.


Phil Baxter: So moved.


Carl Conner: Second


All voted aye, motion carried 3-0. Meeting adjourned.