JULY 12, 2006
COMMISSIONERS MEETING ROOM
107 W. Locust
The Warrick County Drainage Board met in regular session with President Don Williams presiding, also in attendance were Phillip H. Baxter, Vice-President; Carl Jay Conner, Secretary; Jim Niemeyer, Surveyor and David K. Zengler, Attorney.
Also in attendance was Sean M. Owen, Deputy Surveyor.
Audience attendance was Jim Morley, Jr., Jordan M. Aigner, Manny Rydholm, Roger Beard, Mike Schopmeyer, Glenn Allen, Dolores Allen, Jim Portteus, Sue Loeffler and Doug Henry.
Minutes were recorded and transcribed by Cheryl D. Embry.
APPROVAL OF MINUTES:
Phil Baxter: I move that we approve the minutes for June 28, 2006.
Don Williams:† Do I have a second?
Carl Conner: Second.
Don Williams:† Motion made and seconded to approve minutes from June 28, 2006 all in favor say aye.
Three ayes motion was carried 3-0.
DRAINAGE PLAN APPROVAL
ARBOR POINTE SUBDIVISION:
Don Williams:† First on the agenda is Arbor Pointe Subdivision.
Mike Schopmeyer: †Morning, my name is Mike Schopmeyer, with the Law firm of Condees, Donavan and Kahn here along with Jim Morley, Jr. from Morley and Associates and our clients Arbor Pointe LLC Bob and Bruce Hatfield. We are happy to address any questions you have, I think the plans, I hope speak for themselves. The plans for Mr. Baxter, Connor and Williams have been changed from our discussion a few weeks ago to reflect the road, both roads, proposed roadways of Grimm Road and Vann being reflected in the plans as well as a change in one of the outlets onto the proposed Vann Road, which is a result of some discussions weíve had with the Engineer. Iíll let Jim address any further points which need introduction.
Jim Morley, Jr.:† Any questions?
Don Williams:† Iíve looked at it, youíve got five different drainage retention basins.
Jim Morley, Jr.:† Three that store water, the other two are just decorative.
Don Williams:† Right, but theyíre all tied together, I noticed. The question is, any guess on how thatís going to affect the legal drain there as far as handling that water? It should be ok, you built on 50:5.
Jim Morley, Jr.:† Actually the discharge of this project has been decreased by a significant amount, I donít know that the exact number is, maybe 50 or 60 CFS. Our ponds are roughly 8 times the size of what they need to be. The side benefit of having a big borrow pits is the back big ponds.
Don Williams:† Are you going to stock them?†
Jim Morley, Jr.:† (laughing) But there should be no negative impact on the Legal Drain or upon anybody, we are holding back a lot more water than we have to.
Sean Owen:† Theyíre far exceeding the design requirements that we have.
Don Williams:† Do you have any questions? Any other statements from the Surveying Office?
Jim Niemeyer:† No
Don Williams:† Any questions from the Board?† Since there are no questions, I would entertain a motion.
Carl Conner:† I would move that we approve the drainage plans for Arbor Pointe as presented?
Phil Baxter:† Second.
Motion was made and seconded. There were 3 ayes. Motion carried 3-0.
Don Williams: Next is Terra Estates.
Carl Conner: I like the name.
Bill Bivins: †Thatís his daughters name. Mr. Merrillís daughters name.
Don Williams:† Do all the lots drain toward the lake, Mr. Bivins? I mean, they are all appropriate size, this is not a problem.
Bill Bivins:† No, part of it drains to the South across Edwards Road.
Don Williams:† Mr. Surveyor, do you have any comments?
Jim Niemeyer:† Everything appears to be in order, there is no drainage required.
Don Williams:† Okay, any questions from the Board?† With none, I would entertain a motion.
Phil Baxter: I move we approve the drainage plans for Terra Estates.
Carl Conner:† Second.
Motion was made and seconded all three Board members voted aye. Motion carried 3-0.
Don Williams:† Are you representing that also, Mr. Bivins?
Bill Bivins:† Yes, sir. Again, this is all strip land 2 Ĺ acres minimum.
Jim Niemeyer: Is that North of
Bill Bivins:† Yes,
it actually butts up against the one we just did, right beside. When we did the
Don Williams:† Any comments, Mr. Surveyor?
Jim Niemeyer:† No, sir.
Don Williams:† Any comments from the Board?† What is the pleasure of the Board?
Carl Conner:† I would move that we approve the request for the drainage plans as presented for Spring Lake Subdivision.
Phil Baxter:† Second
A motion was made and seconded to approve Spring Lake Subdivision, all members voted aye. Motion carried 3-0.
Don Williams:† Mr. Manny Rydholm did I pronounce that right, how bad did I mess it up?
Mr. Rydholm:† Thatís
all right. What I want to do, I live in
Jim Niemeyer:† †Itís Edwards Ditch.
Mr. Rydholm:† Edwards Ditch and you got a large ditch by 66 particularly on the North side when the road was done, nothing was ever done to the South side and that was way out of the ditch there today with the rain we had and thatís notÖ.itís a hard rain but itís not an unusual rain. My concern is with all the development that is going to go on in that area it not only affects the immediate area it affects us that drain into it and this group particularly perhaps use more rigid standards then we have in the past or whatever it takes to try and improve retention because there really is no place for the water to go. Large ditches fill up the box culvertÖ.thereís a big box culvert that was put in from the south side to the north side near Frame to Libbert across that intersection under 66 that is totally submerged in water on numerous rains and the ditches are totally full.
Carl Conner:† May I say one thing?† I was out there today and not to discredit anything that you say, but the water was draining well through that culvert and that culvert was not overflowed.
Mr. Rydholdm:† My wife was out there, I donít know what time you were there, Carl, my wife was there as I was not able to get there today and she said the water was on up around the ERA buildings and other buildings.
Carl Conner:† I was there this morning, Iím talking about this specific culvert that runs from Frame Road across under 66 there on Libbert, it wasÖ.because in fact I was rather surprised because it was my understanding the dirt dam around the subdivision at that intersection there is called Stone-something thatís just to the west of Frame Road, it was flooded because that dam had given way and they had a lot of water in there and some of that water was as high as the mail boxes but that drain from the road there, it was justÖ.it was not covered up, it was handling everything that was feeding in there.
Mr. Rydholm:† Had it stopped raining hard or was it still raining?
Carl Conner:† No, when I was there it was pouring down rain.
Mr. Rydholm:† Yeah, and it may have gotten there, that is what I was wondering what time you were there, because Iíve seen itÖyou knowÖ.taking measurements you never have all the exact details, how much rain did you get and how quickly and all that stuff. But Iíve seen it submerged on a number of occasions. I mean, the ditch going from that corner Edwards Ditch from that corner is very small so the retention that you have and the ditches that are there is pretty well consumed by the typical rain we have once or twice a year, at least at this time and if weíre not careful about whatís done in developing and I can see a lot of things coming and you expect that along 66. You just canít allow that to deteriorate and I would hope maybe there are some ways to look at alleviating that in some way cause I think the longer we go the more development we do, we kind of tie our hands in the long run to whatís left to you know what you can do with it as far as drainage areas and that sort of thing. You get more buildings you get more hard surface
You get all that kind of stuff, soÖ.
So, are youÖdid I understand you to say that you are in the subdivision
thatís south of
Mr. Rydholm:† Yes, the drainage that causes us a problem and gets out of our ditch is fromÖcomes from the corner of 261 and Outer Lincoln. It comes down through our subdivision and goes out behind Schnucks.
Carl Conner:† Okay crosses over and goesÖ.okay.
Jim Niemeyer: Thatís where it ties into that box culvertÖer buried drain.
Mr. Rydholm:† Thatís
where it ties in at the underground drainage at
Don Williams:† How long has that been going on, Sir? Just out of curiosity.
Mr. Rydholm:† For a long time, itís not a new problem. Itís an old problem and we donít have a neighborhood association or anything else in that area, not very organized about people doing things I think they just hope itís going to get better and it doesnít you know.
Thatís my concern, I guess the other part of it is I know any proposed changes that might occur that drain into that for example the new First Christian Church was built up on the corner and I know they have a retention pond. There is a large area there yet that is still grass on the corner since the tornado went through, I would hate to see that paved or something and just run on down into our subdivision, anything that would feed into there rapidly would make our situation worse in a hurry and so I guess I just request anything that happens there, you know like I know the widening of Outer Lincoln is coming. I donít know if something can be done there to collect that water. There is a tremendous amount of water that comes off from the other part of Green Springs and it comes down everywhere between houses and what not once it fills that ditch along Outer Lincoln and it happens in a hurry. There is just water everywhere coming down through our development and I donít know if there is a way to divert some of that in the process of when we get to widening that road type of thing, again you divert it, it still has to go to the corner, you may still have a corner problem at 66 and Iím still concerned about that not being adequate. I just feel that the farther we go in development the more we get tied inÖboxed in, in what the alternatives may be and may be more expensive. But, we just canít afford more runoff into our area either, I guess thatís the other point that drain that comes into our ditch and goes out or more runoff into that ditch down stream that would back-up in our area because we are affected by that ditch.
Don Williams:† Have you looked at that area at all back in there?
Jim Niemeyer:† Iíve been in it and I understand what he is talking about, Iíve been there in heavy rains, the water runs right down the street, there arenít any curb drains at all that I could see. The whole area, I think is like he said building up but where we can have some more or less immediate effect is to get Edward Ditch where it empties into Weinsheimer that needs to be look at really severely and Weinsheimer dumps into Pigeon Creek and thatís not been addressed for a long time. From what Iíve done from my budget next year is ask for a substantial increase, I donít know whether Iíll get it or not. But we have 400 miles of regulated drains in the County and I kind of made it a goal, I donít know if itís correct or not, but to visit 10% of those legal drains each year. Which would mean we could make a complete cycle in 10 years and the Pigeon Creek area and Weinsheimer is pretty bad and just like Little Pigeon Creek on the east side, itís really a mess.
Sean Owen:† Edwards Ditch is the one that floods Oak Grove. It was flooded today.
Don Williams:† When is Edwards Ditch being look at as far as cleaning and sloping?
Jim Niemeyer:† Iíd like to get onto that next year. I donít believe weíre going to have funds yet this year to do it.
Mr. Rydholm:† Are you looking at all at enlarging it at the same time, Jim?
Jim Niemeyer:† Well, what weíd probably do is decrease the slope and make it wider so that would give it additional volume and straighten it where necessary. We did do Howard-Williams Ditch and weíre still not finished with it, but I was out there this morning and it was running full, but that subdivision that has a lot of problems still isnít flooded so I think what we done has really made a difference.
Don Williams:† Cleaning them and widening them helps out quite a bit.
Jim Niemeyer:† But the water gets away there pretty fast.
Mr. Rydholm:† Well, I would appreciate anything as things go on and I just think that right now weíre at a ragged edge and anything we can do to improve that. Weíre going to get flooded you know because weíre talking about a twice yearly event and itís not once every 5-10 itís a 25 year event and it going to be a heck of a lot of homesÖÖ.
Don Williams: †Yeah, we seem to get those 50-year floods about twice a year, here in the last couple of years anyway.
Mr. Rydholm:† I am aware of just how tenuous it is in that area and anyway we can cut back on anything that would increase runoff and to also do some work downstream to try and get it out of there faster.
Jim Niemeyer:† †Could I make a statement? One of the things I think should be done and I guess Iím recommending this to the Commissioners here, is that we initiate a drainage study that takes into account the whole on a regional basis to make sure that all design criteria are alike, you know cause a lot of these are designed at different times and had different specifications and people tend to become microscopic and forget whatís out here and there. I think that would be worth spending the funds on if we could do that and in view of the fact that like you say Outer Lincoln will be changed or modified, I think we need to take in the whole area and how these things affect it.
Mr. Rydholm:† Right, and Iíd understood Iím not aware of whatísÖI havenít talked to an engineer thatís working they are always working primarily on the other end. I understand that road is to be curved when itís done, widened and curved. If we just kind of collect we have a bigger hard surface we collect it and try and dump it down into our neighborhood for example, itís all open streets and between houses and that kind of stuff thatísÖ..I just donít see how itís acceptable. I mean Iíll just be honest with you.
Well, not only is that in the plans, but there is a major drainage work
that will be a part of the Lincoln Avenue project and weíre supposed to yet
this year unless there has been some change, start on that project starting at
the County line and moving east. But the first phase of that project will only
be to the intersection of
Don Williams:† Of course, that is always dependent upon funds available from the State since itís a Federal Aid Project.
Mr. Rydholm:† Sure, things could be done at that time and I know it would take a lot more time, but things that could be done at that time to divert, if it catches water coming off the North side of Green Springs for example, take it down to Bell Road or something like that, it still has to get out the corner down there unless something else is done. But because there is a tremendous amount of water that comes on down through that adds to our problem from that source. In the meantime, it is important that we donít allow changes to take place coming in there that would increase runoff and if there is any way to reduce it now, I mean, it would be beneficial to get it and get it out of thereÖ..
Carl Conner: Well, I think we can probably assure you that you wonít have to worry about any runoff from any commercial developments in there. But, on a serious side, I mean that does create a big drainage problem, I mean the more pavement you put down the more concrete you put down, that water has to go somewhere.
Mr. Rydholm:† It does and it makes the whole system a little less forgiving, you know you can do the trade offs, but in the end there is less areas to absorb water and that sort of thing and itís hard to stay even. I appreciate your time.
Don Williams:† We appreciate your making us aware of the situation.
Carl Conner:† We appreciate you coming in. Thank you.
Don Williams:† †Have you gentleman looked at your claims?
Carl Conner:† Jim, are completed with Allen Ditch now?
Jim Niemeyer:† Yes, I want to go back depending whether it rains anymore, but go back tomorrow or Monday and see what affects this rain had, because the water was really pouring down the ditch this morning and it just looked like rapids all the way down. I know that it moved a little bit of rocks and I would kind of like to see what we got there and see how it affected it, but I would say yes, 99.95% itís complete.
Carl Conner:† So, weíre not going to have any more claims related to Allen Ditch to pay than the ones here.
Jim Niemeyer: Yes, Iím not sure, I donít think we have Henry totally paid for. Also that M & W. products claim is for Gardner-Webb on Coal Mine Road not Allen Ditch. We do have some erosion material that we need to pay for, just got those bills today. I believe we have Mulzer Stone taken care of. I did want to mention this, they have a 25-foot section of bridge, steel bridge that we may be able to pick up for the price of scrap. I would recommend that you takeÖ..
Don Williams:† Talking about the possibility of when we pull that culvert?
Carl Conner: I thought that culvert had been taken out of there.
Don Williams:† It hasnít been pulled out yet, because they havenít got the excavator over there.
Carl Conner:† He really needs to make that a priority.
Don Williams:† Yeah, to get it done before the end of the month like we promised the gentleman. I think weíre all still in agreement on that, are we not?
Carl Conner:† Oh, I am, I think we definitely need to get over there and get it done.
Don Williams:† Does this Board have any problem with Jim getting that bridge for scrap?
Board agreed it had no problem.
Jim Niemeyer:† If itís available, for sure.
Don Williams:† I think you have our consensus to do that.
Jim Niemeyer: Itís 25-foot in length and its 8-foot in width. It will support anything that they want to run across it.
Don Williams:† Okay, weíll talk about the installation. Let me ask you this, Jim, the Lechners, Inc. on Polkberry Creek, that $1,900.00, what was that for?
Jim Niemeyer:† That was an emergency. We removed two islands in the middle of that big ditch.
Don Williams:† I thought it might be another one of those log jams or beaver dams that we get ever once in a while.
Jim Niemeyer:† No.
Don Williams:† Okay, any other questions concerning the claims?† If not, I would entertain a motion to pay claims.
Carl Conner:† I would move that we pay the claims as submitted in the amount of $64,916.05.
Phil Baxter:† Second.
Motion was made and seconded. All members voted aye. Motion carried 3-0.
Don Williams:† Jim, do you have any other business?
Jim Niemeyer:† No.
Don Williams:† There are several people here, do you folks have anything to bring before this Board? Yes, sir if you would come forward and state your name and address and your business.
Roger Beard:† †My name is Roger Beard 433 Fuquay Road, regarding the ditch on Fuquay there next to the town city limits. The proposal you guys I think to put two 36-inch culverts onto the West side of the road, which is our property. We think it will decrease the value of our property when you dig that ditch out deeper. Those lots in there now for a subdivision, there will have to be a curb, gutter and sidewalk put in there and that will add to the increase of the person who buys it or who owns the house there. I have no problem in fixing the flooding problem for the people across the road, we just donít want the water on our side, you know, diverted over there, except whatís in the legal drain.
Don Williams:† We tackled this back in February, did we not? Does that sound right, the 22nd?
This has been an ongoing 5-year project which youíre well aware of with
input from two engineers, the previous engineer Steve Sherwood and the present
engineer. We have looked at options and the option that we have selected, we
feel is the best option to address the issue and how it fits into the
neighborhood and as of right now my understanding, the status of that is we
have potholed the area that we have some utilities that need to be moved. The
Don Williams:† Is
Carl Conner:† My understanding is that Bobby has been working with the City of Chandler and what the status of that is, I donít know nor do I know the status of the situation with the Boonville Gas Company, I understand that the owner of Boonville gas was out of town and they had requested that we wait until he comes back.
Don Williams:† I
had heard that the Town of
Carl Conner:† I think that is probably a debatable issue and it hasnít been resolved.
Don Williams:† Okay, it may not be, that is just what I had heard to the tune of $15,000.00 or something like that. When we initially approved this project we looked at a $20,000.00 figure.
Carl Conner:† I think that we looked at a dollar amount not being aware that we had utilities in there that possibly need to be moved. But, itís like any other project, I think that your open to some reasonable risk in regards to when you do a project and that is one of the risks that you run.
Don Williams:† So, is the issue whether what weíre going to do exactly hasnít been resolved yet apparently until we find out what Chandler is doing, is that what your saying, Carl?
Carl Conner:† What Iím saying is that I have no definite input from Chandler in regards to what they are going to do or the Boonville Gas Company, the only thing I know is that the facts are, the City of Chandler has utilities in there that need to be moved according to our engineer and Boonville gas has gas lines that need to be moved.
Mr. Beard:† Well, I was just wondering whyÖ.I mean they have a problem on that side of the road. We just donít want that problem moved to our side of the road.
And Iím just going to give you my opinion, Mr. Beard. Itís been an issue
for five years. We have been dealing with it for five years. I think that
Mr. Beard:† Yes, I agree.
Carl Conner:† Thatís my understanding and the status of the project.
Don Williams:† I
think there are some issues we are going to have to look at when the expenses
come in if
Mr. Beard:† What was asked of the engineer to design? To fill in their ditch or to fix the flooding problem?
Carl Conner: I think that the ultimate goal of the engineer was to come up with a way to address drainage problems, safety issues and the most economical way that we possibly could and based upon my knowledge which is very limited from an engineering perspective, we have selected at this time the probably the correct alternative.
Mr. Beard:† Which is?
Carl Conner:† Which is the one that we have selected.
Mr. Beard:† Selected
And if you would like to see that if you havenít, then I would suggest
that you go downstairs to the
Mr. Beard:† I just donít understand why filling in a big ditch with a 60-inch or a 5-foot or a 6-foot culvert covering it up is going to make the water move any better than a big ditch. I donít know why you cannot put two culverts where it goes across the road now or put a bigger one in to take care of the water. I donít know if that has ever been asked.
Don Williams:† †We voted to do this project unanimously back
in February at the Drainage Board Meeting, we had a possibility of some culvert
I think from Telephone Road, maybe, I canít remember. I have those minutes and
the thought was that it would probably cost around $20,000.00 and the goal from
my perspective was to expedite drainage as well as safety issues. The curving
of the ditch at that time, my understanding was that there would be nothing
done to the opposite side of the road that it would be filled in on the east
side of the road and go into a union to guide it on down the drain. I donít
recall us ever adopting a specific plan as a Board other than that. Anyway I donít
think we can do anything until we hear something from
Mr. Beard:† Okay, could I be notified when this is found out?
Don Williams:† I donít see why not, youíre an adjacent property owner.
Carl Conner:† Well, and itís a public project and as I told you whenever we had a meeting out there with that project, that you know I would call you, you gave me your telephone number and I will do that. I also will contact the other people on the other side of the road who have the problems with the rats, who have the problems with the water in their houses, because they want to be a part of that meeting also and they need to be a part of that discussion. So whenever that occurs, I will be more than happy to call you.
Mr. Beard:† But weíre getting blamed for their water problem, they have blamed us.
Carl Conner:† Sir, I donít know where the blame isÖ..
Mr. Beard:† I know that, but itÖ..
Carl Conner:† Mr. Beard, let me say this, you know I really donít care whoís responsible for what, the only thing I know is, the County went out there a number of years ago and we made some changes that created the flooding problems and I personally feel as one County Commissioner that we have a duty and responsibility to correct that and that is what we have been trying to do over the last five years is to come up with a plan to do that. Now, myÖas one Commissioner, I will continue to pursue that until that matter is resolved and I am more than happy to have your input or anyone elseís input whenever we sit down and discuss the issue once again and we have some open issues right now. We donít know for a fact that Chandler is or is not going to move those water lines, We donít know for a fact that Boonville Gas is going to move their lines or not. We donít have anything finalized and those are issues that we have to work through.
Don Williams:† So, weíre just not there yet, Mr. Beard.
Mr. Beard:† Yeah, I know, Iím just voicing my opinion on putting it on my side of the road, you know diverting the water over there.
Don Williams:† The point is well understood.
Mr. Beard:† Itís going to cost us a lot more money in the long run for something that somebody else did across the road that they didnít do right. So, their problem is costing us and I donít think thatís right.
Carl Conner:† And I agree with you, but I think their problem was created by the County.
Mr. Beard:† It could have been when they took the bridge out and put the culvert in. So why not take the culvert back out and put the bridge back?
Carl Conner:† And made the changes to the road.
Don Williams:† What changes to the road? Was there changes to the road?
Mr. Beard:† The only thing I know is paved.
Carl Conner: And was there not a bridge there at one time?
Mr. Beard:† †Thatís what I said when they took the bridge out and put the culvert in.
Don Williams:† It
still flooded back when there was a bridge, cause I remember as a kid riding my
bicycle down through there, I grew up in
Mr. Beard:† That was back water, it was never head water.
Don Williams:† There was never a problem with head water, it was always back water.
Mr. Beard:† This last time they did get it, it was head water, cause it was running over the road before it got there.
Don Williams:† I think the problem goes back to whoever allowed those homes to be built in there in a flood plain.
Carl Conner:† I have been there on a weekend in their driveway with water standing over my shoes and water over the road and the other thing is, in my opinion is that itís a real safety issue. Iím going to speculate that ditch to be at least 6-8 foot deep and Iím surprised that a teenager or an individual hasnít come along and done basically the same thing that happened over on Frame Road where somebody put a car in that ditch and lost their life and those ditches over on Frame Road were not that deep and to the best of my knowledge weíve lost two lives over there within the last 7-8 years. So what Iím saying is that itís not only a drainage problem I want to address, I also want to address the health problem and I want to address the safety issue.
Mr. Beard:† The ditch is closer to the road past the stop sign, its right at the edge of the road, even right across from my house, it is a lot closer to the road than it is in front of their house.
Carl Conner:† And I think this Board understands where youíre coming from and weíre open to your input and we appreciate it, but at some point and time this Board has to make a decision.
Mr. Beard: If you do put culverts across there I would like for you to look at putting a culvert all the way down that side where they put the ditch, so it would not depreciate the value of our property as much. As far as somebody when the lots are sold they donít have to figure in putting a culvert in to put the curb, gutter and sidewalks in. I think that itís only fair that if youíre going to fill in a ditch on the other side and put a culvert in, the ditch youíre digging you ought to put a culvert in too.
Don Williams:† We appreciate your input, Mr. Beard. Thank you. Anyone else have any input for the Board? Iíll entertain a motion to adjourn.
Carl Conner: I would move that we adjourn.
Phil Baxter:† Second
The motion was made to adjourn, seconded all members voted aye. Motion carried 3-0
Meeting was adjourned.