SEPTEMBER 27, 2006
The Warrick County Drainage Board met in regular session with President Don Williams presiding, also in attendance were Phillip H. Baxter, Vice-President; Carl Jay Conner, Secretary;† Jim Niemeyer, Surveyor and David K. Zengler, Attorney for Board.
Also attending was Sean M. Owen, Deputy Surveyor
Minutes were recorded and transcribed by Cheryl D. Embry
Audience attendance was Bill Bivins, Wileen Halter, Sarah Evans, Donna Potts, Gilda S. Cartagena, Marygale Ritzert, Victoria Ritzert, Amy Clutter, Lemmie Killough, Susan Ripke, Tony Parrish, Al Salhoff, Mike Morris, Joe & Carol Guisry, Rebecca Toothman, Brian Fossmeyer, Linda Morris, Cecil Raymond, Marty Chenault, Don Parke, Michael Fox, JoAnn Eisele, Dave Eisele, Jesse Cartwright, Bruce Wistisen, Leon Corressell, Martha Custis, Laura McVey, Jennifer Brown, Alphonso Dennis, Mike Fisher, Steve Newson, Donna Whorley and Mike Cecil.
APPROVAL OF MINUTES:
Carl Conner:† Second
Don Williams:† Motion made and seconded to postpone the minutes until the first meeting in October. 3 ayes. Motion carried 3-0.
Mr. Surveyor, drainage discussions.
Jim Niemeyer:† The first group on the list is the Springston-Canterbury Green representatives.
Don Williams:† If you would, we have a large number and we have several discussions, we would ask that you keep them as short as possible and if there is more than one person to speak on a particular drainage situation, we ask that nothing be re-stated. If you would state your name, address and who you represent please.
Tony Parrish: †Itís
Tony Parrish, my address is
Don Williams:† Is that the kind of northeast section there of that subdivision where thatÖ..I just want to make sure Iíve got the right one. Northwest corner, Iím sorry.
Mr. Parrish left the microphone to explain the pictures. If you can see the ditch, they are diverting that water directly at our houses. The spillway that we noted here is not according to the plans on the retention basin.
Don Williams:† Jim, you make note of this causeÖ..
Jim Niemeyer:† Iíve already been there.
Mr. Parrish:† Jim has been involved in this trying to help us straighten this out.
Don Williams:† The spillway is facing west instead of North, it looks like.
Mr. Parrish:† Yes, thatís correct. ( He also presented a final plan and explained about a pipe that is supposed to have an overflow that heads north. Only found one heading southwest and there is also a bunch of debris covering it so you canít see the pipe.
The next picture is the retention overflow inlet and ĺ of that inlet is closed off, they have a choke valve on there.
Next picture is the outlet, you can see all the debris and that is where the water is flowing out when it is not overflowing over the spillway.
Bill Englebrecht has a retention pond in front of his house
which is on this property and he has piped that to the
He showed many more pictures and explained them and stated that they looked at was rule 5327IAC15-5-7 plainly statesĒ collection runoff leaving a project site must either be discharged directly into a well defined stable receiving channel or defused and released into adjacent property without causing any erosion or pollution problems to any adjacent property owner. Another one was drainage channel and swales must be designed and adequately protected so that the final grade and result velocities will not cause erosion in a receiving channel and during the period of construction activities all storm water quality measures necessary to meet the requirements of this rule shall me maintained in working order. We feel that they are not doing that. Jim Niemeyer gave us this paper from Indiana Farm Bureau and it states ďIncreased flowage and water Course, an upper landowner may not construct ditches and channels on his land to carry and drain surface water to an existing watercourse, however he may not change the course of the water or collect or concentrate the surface of the water and cast it on the land of the lower owner causing damage.Ē †We are clearly getting damaged, our yards are trashed, our kids canít go out in the yard or let our dogs out and there is sediment, erosion and some of our homes have water in the crawlspace. We did some research on some lawsuits and we found one in Morgan Circuit Court judge held that in notwithstanding the Planning Commission that any planned development including a drainage system adequate to handle storm water runoff from a developer in upper watershed areas, the owner of the upper watershed area who collect the water which fell or passed into his property and directed it by means of artificial channel to a point where it was discharged and concentrated flowage on the lower undeveloped land was liable for resulting damage.
Don Williams:† Have you talked to Mr. Engelbrecht or Mr. Holweger?† Any response
Mr. Parrish:† We
talked to Mr. Holweger. Here is what he told us. There is a ditch on
Don Williams:† Did it help anything at all>
Mr. Parrish:† Well, what it did help. Once we got the rain and everything flowed through, the next day the water was gone, that helped but we still had water standing in the road. Holweger and Engelbrecht enlarged their retention basin, but all that didÖ..the levy breached again.
Carl Conner:† I think cleaning out those ditches along there did help, didnít help your situation but it did help to some degree the water sitting on Vann Avenue and thatís one of the reasons that we had that cleaned out, but that was primarily cleaned out as a part of what Jim has presently been involved relative to working with you about this situation here. Iím not saying that resolved your problem, Iím just saying that we felt like that was right.
Mr. Parrish: Right, that helped the water flow out, but the problem is that retention basin is overflowing, going over the spillway into our backyards. We have had water 35-feet in our backyards and that is in those pictures.
Don Williams:† †You didnít show this to Mr. Holweger did you? This finding?
Mr. Parrish: No
Don Williams:†† That might have been beneficial.
Mr. Parrish: His theory was that the ditch was the problem,
but I asked him how he was going to keep the sediment coming from the retention
Don Williams:† Well, the dirt and mud coming off his property that is not legal, IDEM will have a real problem with that.
Mr. Parrish stated that they had discussed this with IDEM and they said it was an issue and they are investigating.
Mr. Parrish explains more pictures and keeps walking away from the microphone.
He stated that this was ruining the value of their homes and they could not sell their homes right now in this situation.
There was discussion about owners taking their fences down to try and help the flow.
Don Williams:† Okay, I think Iíve seen quite enough.
Mr. Parrish kept showing pictures and explaining things over and over about getting all of Engelbrechtís surface water. Mr. Parrish explained where the water used to drain (pictures) when there was an orchard there. He also stated that they had increased the water volume by 4 times and that is not legal. He also stated that they made the retention bigger and deeper and it still didnít help as the spillway is in the wrong position. It is not built to specs. The pipe should be draining to the ditch and this problem would be resolved.
Don Williams:† Jim, do you have that, do you understand what he is talking about?
Jim Niemeyer:† Yes, Iíll make a copy and give it back to you.
Mr. Parrish continued explaining.
Don Williams:† You donít have to say a lot more, Mr. Parrish, we appreciate your comments. Gentlemen, youíve heard Mr. Parrish and I donít mean to cut him off but we do have to go on. It appears from his discussions that there is a definite problem with the retention basin and also the overflow pipe which is heading west to east. Jim, have you had an opportunity to investigate this.
Jim Niemeyer:† Yes, I wrote Mr. Engelbrecht a letter asking him for an as-built diagram of the situation and this area will not be approved for maintenance in accordance with the desire of the County Engineer, Bobby Howard because it has not been approved for maintenance and so we can demand that and we have been out there we have run some elevations and basically they are pretty much true.
Don Williams:† I
have a question for you, Jim. Do you agree with
Jim Niemeyer:† Run it north if we could up to Vann Road, see if we run to the south there, that is I think a 12-inch drain and it is already designed to carry† a certain load and if you add this to it, it wonít handle it. That was put in there by Mr. Ubelhor. But, going to the north from this dam, the overflow needs to be changed, the swale needs to be cut into the detention pond and then I think thereís room where they could run on the west side of the Engelbrecht property out to Vann Road, it could be a swale or a properly designed culvert or pipe.
Mr. Parrish: He did a pipe on his own personal to Vann from his retention pond.
Don Williams:† Iíll tell you what gentleman, I would make a motion that we have our Surveyor present this to Mr. Engelbrecht and Mr. Holweger and tell them they need to fix the problem, its that plain and simple. (Mr. Parrish interrupted and stated that he had a disc with more pictures)† You do have legal recourse to those developers if we canít get it any other way. I think bringing IDEM into the picture was a positive move. Asher Subdivision, Mr. William Halter, if you would come up.
Carl Conner:† Don, did you not make a motion?
Don Williams:† Yes, I did, there is a motion on the floor.
Carl Conner: I will second it and I have a question and I would like to ask our attorney for his input. As the Drainage Board and as you have heard and looked at the information that was given to us today. Do we have any legal recourse relative to enforcement on the developers if the need arises?
David K. Zengler:† This Board would have authority if the plans are submitted are not as-built. I donít think you couldÖ..
Don Williams:† That appears to be the case and we can enforce the approved plans.
David K. Zengler:† Obviously, you canít do anything for the damages to the property that would be their private issue.
Carl Conner: I understand that, but to be a part of something that would possibly enforce the improvements that are necessary and appropriate, we as a Drainage Board do have that prerogative.
David K. Zengler: At least as far as, yeahÖas what they propose initially if itís not as built.
Don Williams:† And also the breech, the problem there needs to be addressed if itís happened 2-3 times already. Sounds to me like the outside needs to be rip-rapped or something to hold the wall solid or if itís coming out of the top that may be a whole new different problem, but if itís actually coming ÖÖ
Jim Niemeyer:† Itís coming out of the emergency overflow.
Don Williams:† Okay, lets get on, we have a motion and a second, all in favor say aye. Three ayes. Motion carried 3-0. Please take care of that Mr. Surveyor.
Carl Conner:† And I would ask that you keep us updated so if there is any additional action that has to be taken by this Board, I would appreciate that.
Don Williams:† †Mr. Halter, sorry to keep you waiting. I understand that you had a video presentation you would liked to have made and thatís quite permissible, the only problem is you need to come in early and get that set-up and that can be arranged very easily.
Someone in the audience stated the door was locked and they wouldnít let them in.
Don Williams:† †Well, next time just come in the Commissionerís Office and weíll get you in.
Someone stated that they also had it printed out but that the Board would have to share.
The CD Romís that Laura is handing out have pictures and the presentation is on the CD.
Don Williams:† Please state your name and if we need you to come show it at a later time we will do that on the second meeting in October if we need to. So if you would state your name, address and who you represent.
Kevin Tanner:† Kevin
Don Williams: Has that drain never worked?
Mr. Tanner:† I honestly donít know, I donít know if itís clogged or if it canít handle the volume of water. It feeds down to the drainage system in the street but I donít what the issue with it is. But itís constantly in that area basically a swamp as water just sits there.
Mr. Tanner goes on to explain more pictures. He measured the water at one point and it was 20 inches deep and this was not the deepest point.
He also stated that water also gets into his crawlspace in his house.
In some of the pictures that he is showing you cannot see the street, the yards or the sidewalk. Water gets up to the axles of vehicles.
Mr. Tanner also showed pictures of debris which is in some places 2-3 feet deep.
As I have stated before we have multiple concerns with mold growth, mosquitoes and also very dangerous for our children not to mention the mud and the home value etc.
Our issue is with the retention pond and the ditch that drains that retention pond, basically water canít get to the retention pond and once it does, it canít leave it cause there is just no place for it to go. The drain pipe appears to be broken or crooked and I think that itís blocked off. This little drainage ditch that is supposed to empty this particular retention pond is tiny, itís maybe a foot and a half deep and it really isnít anyway for that water to get out of there, so what happens, it backs up into the neighborhood.
The second problem is water draining from Outer Lincoln
comes into our neighborhood and you can definitely see it on the video tons of
water that is coming out of the drains into our neighborhood and it is
obviously coming from
The third main problem we see is basically that with all the mud and debris and rocks, Iím sure that the drainage system is clogged and impeding the flow of water out of the neighborhood.
He explained more pictures and then said that from their perspective the possible solution to this would be to widen and deepen that retention pond and widen and deepen the ditch that drains the retention pond and then also investigate if any of the water from Lincoln can be diverted to the south instead of to the north in our neighborhood because right now it appears that everything is coming to the north.
Don Williams:† †Have you had a chance to investigate this Jim? Do you agree with his statement?
Jim Niemeyer:† Yes and there is probably more that could be done too. There is a legal drain to the south of Halston, I think itís Willow Pond Ditch and then there is to the north, I think the flow there to the north toward 66 and then it has to leave there so it has to go, I think, correct me if Iím wrongÖ.
Sean Owen:† Well, from that retention pond there is a pipe that goes in between Halston and Dave Meyer Subdivision Stonecreek and then it goes through that old gun club property and goes up to 66 comes back and supposed to go under the pipe at 66 and Libbert and go through Edwards Ditch.
Carl Conner: Thatís a legal drain isnít it?
Sean Owen:† Edwards is but, just right there.
Carl Conner:† Does that legal drain need to be cleaned out?
Sean Owen:† Yes, itís the same one that we are having the problem with at that intersection of the nursing home.
Someone from the audience asked if it was legal for a county
Don Williams: ††Thatís before our time and we donít know how it happened to be. At least I donít. Thatís one of the things we need to check into.
The gentleman from the audience kept talking and most was inaudible.
Carl Conner:† Probably a lot of that is probably coming from the subdivision that sits above you because it is at a higher elevation to the west there.
It was stated that
Sean Owen:† Thatís part of his erosion control plan.
People in the audience keep talking and not coming to the microphone so most of it is inaudible.
Jim Niemeyer: I saw it Saturday I was out there.
Mr. Williams told the audience if they wanted to speak to please come forward to the microphone.
Laura McVey:† Laura
Don Williams:† I think we have to look at all of it. We are looking at a plan for the whole County, but particularly the Southern part, thatís where the majority of our drainage problems are.
I donít know how much we can do, I know we can certainly
look at the water coming off
Jim Niemeyer:† I think we need to look at the drainage from their detention pond north and that needs to be reviewed by the developers and then of course it runs out there to 66 and crosses under the road and then out under Edwards. A good point was made, I donít know if we could improve or have drainage go to the south cause there is a legal drain there thatís off ofÖÖ
Don Williams:† Why donít you investigate that and report back to us by the first meeting in October. I donít know how much this Board can actually do because we are primarily responsible for legal drains but we do have some things coming down the pipe. We have a storm water management district weíre putting into place and we also are looking for a plan for the whole southern part, because what happens in some of our ditches is that they flow in the wrong direction. Instead of flowing to the river they flow away from it. So that is some of the problem that we are looking at. Weíll have Jim investigate it and if you want to come back October 11 which will be our next meeting. I donít know that you need to bring everybody with you as we understand the problem and we certainly understand that you have support so in the meantime weíll have Jim do some investigation.
Sean Owen:† And we are currently working on cleaning out Edwards Ditch which is where all this water goes to.
Don Williams:† Do you have any idea when that will be done?
Sean Owen: Not sure, weíre working with the highway department, so we need to get together with Bobby.
Mr. Tanner:† Well, I mean quite honestly if something was done with the retention pond at the northwest corner of the neighborhood and that drainage ditch that feeds out to the Lloyd, even if the water was coming in from Lincoln as long as it has somewhere to go and it doesnít back up and come into the neighborhood. I think that might solve a great deal of the problem.
A lady asked about the drain that is backing up behind her
house in the middle of
Don Williams:† †Typically this Board can do nothing about those drains.
The lady asked if she could legally do something about it as itís in an easement.
Don Williams:† Absolutely, itís a natural drain easement. It is the subdivisions easement and the members of that subdivision, itís not a county easement, itís just a water easement for that purpose and certainly you can clean it and do whatever you think you need to do. This Board really had no jurisdiction to go in or any authority to go in and clean those drains.
Lady:† So it belongs to the subdivision.
Don Williams:† Right
Sean Owen: Itís either dedicated to a Home Owners Association or the individual property owners to maintain those easements.
Don Williams:† The plat will tell you that. Some of these issues we can certainly look into and hopefully we can give you some support anyway.
Lady:† Is it legal for
us to block the drains that are coming off of
Don Williams:†† You are not supposed to block any drains.
Lady:† Okay, weíre just supposed to stand there and watch the water rise up towards our house.
Don Williams:† That is the only statement I can legally make. (another man asked a question something about drains but it was inaudible) I think the problem isnít so much as theyíre coming in, it is that the water is not able to get out. I think the issue isÖ.
Many people in the audience began talking at once. Something was asked about the drains being blocked at Huntington Ridge? It was answered that the Commissioners would probably be responsible.
Carl Conner:† We can remember to conduct our business as Board of Commissioners in regards to these issues and I can assure you that the Lincoln Avenue project or what I think of as a project, which is a part of your drainage problem, we will address that immediately because that is in a road Right-of-Way and we donít need any approval from anyone. Jim, have we had an opportunity as of today to look at the drainage plans that are on file to determine whether or not the specifications of those plans have actually been met by the builder, the developer in that area.
Jim Niemeyer: Do you man Asher?
Carl Conner:† That entire thing.
Jim Niemeyer:† No, I havenít looked at those.
Carl Conner: Iím going to make a motion here, cause I think these things need to be in motions to be in the minutes so we will know what we are going to do or not do and what we have promised the people that come here to do. And Jim, my motion would be that we determine first before we take any actions that we can take from a legal perspective excluding the road Right-of-Way and we can correct that through the highway department hopefully, or at least weíll attempt to address it, is that you determine that the builders and the developers along that area and Iím not only talking about the subdivision that these people are from, but the adjacent subdivision which would be to the west that they have met all of the approved drainage requirements and hopefully you can give us, I know thatís a tall order. But hopefully you can give us an answer by our next meeting on October 11 because if problems exist because of approved plans not being conformed to, then we need to take immediate action. But we donít know that untilÖÖ.
(applause from audience)
Don Williams:††† †††Absolutely, Second.† Motion has been made and seconded all in favor say aye. Motion carries 3-0.
TANGLEWOOD SUBDIVISION: Victoria & Marygayle Ritzert:
Don Williams:† If you would state your name, address and who you represent.
Marygale Ritzert:† Iím
Marygale Ritzert and this is Victoria Ritzert she lives at
Don Williams:† You have a problem and youíre speaking, is that it?
Victoria Ritzert:† Itís my mother and she came up with the presentation.
Marygale Ritzert:† I
have a couple of maps that will help you locate the area in case not everyone
is familiar with Tanglewood, as it is a very small subdivision. On side A of
Carl Conner:† That was probably me.
Victoria Ritzert: That was the first I had heard of it, it wasnít disclosed to me when I bought the house.
Carl Conner: Well, disclosure of transfer of title or
something like that, Iím sure youíll understand is not our responsibility and I
donít mean to interrupt your presentation but if you donít mind maybe I can
make some comments and it might save you some time. Members of this Board have
Ms. Ritzert: How did youÖwere you able to get back there at all? Did you get back to the cul-de-sac, all the way back in the water?
Carl Conner:† Yes, I was in the water and if I can bring you up to date real quick. There was a couple of reasons why I was at Crystal Court, one was and Iím trying to remember the year and it may have been 2003 that we did a substantial amount of work on Crystal Court, we tore up the street ( she stated it was 2001) Okay I know I was in office, but anyway, we tore up those streets and we put in new drains and we went back then and replaced concrete with concrete and in fact even did a portion of an individuals drive-way.
Ms. Ritzert: That was mine before I moved in.
Carl Conner: We had to go under there and that was one of the reasons I was in there because weíve had drainage problems there in the past. Secondly, it was terrible on Saturday because I was at a number of places and I recognize some other people in this group that I saw on Saturday that had water in their houses in a number of areas. I think the only solutionÖOh and by the way when I was in there, that was the only area that I saw a problem, I went over to the last streetÖ.
Ms. Ritzert: When we were there you couldnít get to the last street. I have missed work.
Carl Conner:† I understand, but I went over on the other street also and there was no problems over there and the reason I went over there is I wanted to also see if we had any problems because we did a substantial amount of work over there. We cleaned out that major drain behind your house that is a legal drain and we cut down a number of trees and everything. I just wanted to see if there was stillÖÖ
Ms. Ritzert: They actually stopped at my property line. Iím just telling you what I know.
Carl Conner: Oh, thatís fine. But anyway we havenít taken any legal action as of yet, This Board has to take legal action, but I feel quite confident that weíre going to do what we need to do because Iíve already talked about it today. I talked about it Saturday with the Commissionerís because we were all out Saturday on issues and I can assure that what weíll be doing is, weíll be going back in there and if we have to tear a portion of that street up, weíll tear it up and do what we have to do. First thing we have to do is we have to get the engineerís to go out there and take a look at it and then come back with some kind of solution. But I recognize you have a problem and the other two Commissioners recognize you have a problem. We have spent numerous hours in Tanglewood, weíve had issues with the builder developer on the bridge, we had to shut him down and we basically did. We shut him down until he got his bridge built and I did go down to the bridge also and all that water was flowing very appropriately at the time I was there.
Ms. Ritzert: Well, when we were there we drove through water about this deep on Tanglewood coming in, but when we could get to Crystal Court as we were out Saturday and she said letís go see if I can get to my house and we also went down to Brownwood which is the next one east and they were under water too.
Carl Conner: When I was there they werenít and Iím
not denying that they were or werenít, Iím just saying when I was there the
only issue I could find was the issue of
Ms. Ritzert: And you realize that we have a double whammy at
Mr. Ritzert presented the Board with pictures and explained them. In November of 2005 water came from the creek and water came from Sandalwood from the north and the ditch is from the south. She also presented a picture of debris that was left from Saturdayís rain.
She showed her electrical boxes which are in an easement and were under water.
It was discussed that the pictures would be put in a file.
Sean Owen: I do want to say that I know itís not going to fix the problem but we are workingÖthe developers of Sandals are cleaning out going to be cleaning out their ditch all the out to Gardner-Webb.
Ms. Ritzert: You know, they cleaned it out and then they put the dirt back in. They had two back-hoes cleaning it out and they had cleaned out and my neighbor watched them clean out a lot of the dirt and then later that day or the next day, they had put all the dirt back in and then it rained.
Sean Owen: Okay, Iím not sure exactly what thatísÖ..and then alsoÖ.
Don Williams:† I canít think why they would do that.
Ms. Ritzert: We donít know either, it was like oh yeah, theyíre cleaning out the ditches and then they put the dirt right back in. He said he was so upset he came back down and was furious.
Don Williams:† Talking about Gardner-Webb west of there, what kind of shape is that in?
Sean Owen: Iím not sure about Gardner-Webb, I havenít been out there to see it on that portion, but then also Gardner-Webb dumps into Edwards, Edwards Ditch goes into Weinsheimer and Weinsheimer goes into Pigeon. Those three major ditches that we are planning on doing some major work on as soon as we can find the funds to do so.
Ms. Ritzert:† This is Sara Evans, she had spoken to you in 2000 and thatís when the engineer had suggested that they have a swale between her house and the vacant lot, the lot is no longer vacant. They allowed a house to be built there and it shouldnít have been since we had the drainage problem.
Sarah Evans:† My name is Sarah Evans 7844 Crystal Court, Tanglewood Subdivision. I moved in July in 1995 since that time Iíve had flooding numerous times and I do not have to have 4-9 inches of rain. One inch of rain in a short period of time and Iím flooded. I have minutes, like she said from February 28, 2000 Highway Foreman, Jack Gore said the drainage pipe in the cul-de-sac is 1/3 the size it should be. The County Engineer Steve Sherwood said the ditch needs to be longer and wider for more capacity but the problem is downstream. There is no grade for the water to flow and I quote Mr. Sherwood in these minutes of 2000 ďThe problem she has where it shows water up to the mailboxes puts the water 1-2 feet above the ditch back there.Ē And I would like to quote Mr. Jack Pike in these minutes of February 28, 2000 ďIt is a ditch that is very flat, the whole drainage of this area is flat it just doesnít get the water away from it with all the construction going on and every time you black top and with more houses it creates more water, you canít get it away from itĒ end quote. I also have a letter of April 2, 2002 that was sent from the Warrick County Surveyor's Office at that time Karan Hargrave Barnhill and its bid specifications for the Tanglewood Ditch, nothing was ever done in 2002. I will give Ms. Barnhill credit, she gave me her cell phone number and I called her one night when water was touching my garage door and requested sand bags. She sent a dump truck out from the County. I did not realize that when you request sand bags you are required to fill them with sand yourself. At that time I had 3-feet of water in the cul-de-sac, 1-foot of water in my drive-way. Where was that dump truck supposed to dump the sand for me to fill the sandbags? My Neighbors climbed in that truck at mid-night in the pouring down rain and filled those sandbags for me. I still have some of those sandbags and I used them last Friday and Saturday both and I still got water in my garage Friday and Saturday.
Carl Conner: There are a couple of things I would
like to say. If it was the night that I was out there filling sandbags with
Karan and bagging up your garage. Karan had called me and we had the County
Highway Department †bring the sand out
and we had no place to dump it other thanÖÖbecause the water at that time was
from youíre cul-de-sac all the way into the intersection and that entire thing
was flooded. Thatís when we went in and thought we were fixing the problem by
tearing that portion of the street and putting in new drainage and the new
drainage was specified by our
Ms. Evans: Well, this meeting of February 28, 2000 they are talking about the box, they had fixed the box in 2000.
Carl Conner:† I wasnít at that meeting, but I can assure you that we will be back out there and we will fix it because you have a major problems and I donít think anybody wants to deny the fact that you have a major problem there.
Ms. Evans: Not only do we have the water in the yards, I have water in my garage. This was 2000 and this is 2006, it would seem that this Board would want to correct the old problems before you start creating new ones.
Don Williams:† This Board spends half it time and money correcting old problems, just so you are aware that we have been correcting problems for 6 years from previous administrations.
Ms. Evans: Every house that is built with drainage in this ditch has created many many more problems especially for the Tanglewood Subdivision. So what can I expect from this Board at this time? Somebody is going to come out? What time? Iíll take off from work again.
Carl Conner: Are you going to have donuts and coffee, if thatís the case we all three may come (laughter). Like I said we need to have the County Surveyor and the County Engineer go out and take a look at the drainage, pull the drainage plans, look at the revisions that was made when we did the previous work, I think it was inÖwhat did you say 2003?
Ms. Evans:† 2003 is when I moved in, I donít know what happened before that.
Ms. Rizert:† I think it was in 2000. 2001
Carl Conner: I know it wasnít in 2000 becauseÖ.I think 2001 is probably right because it was the first or second year. Weíll do everything we can to correct the situation out there because we donít want you to live there, we wouldnít want to live there.
Don Williams:† I think the problem has to be addressed is we have to get the water down to the Legal Drain so it can get away from there.
Carl Conner: But that should be very easy to do because of the fact that legal drain or the drain that runs through there runs right through their back yard. I bet that cul-de-sac is notÖ..
Phil Baxter: Fifty feet?
Carl Conner: Well, maybe a little farther than that, Phil, but it canít be much farther.
Ms. Evans:† Talking about the cul-de-sac to the ditch orÖ.
Carl Conner: Yes, the ditch behind the house.
Ms. Evans:† Oh, yeah, itís very shallow.
Carl Conner: This Board would ask that you hold us accountable and if you donít see any actions taken which wonít occur, you will see action taken. And if you have continuous questions on that just continually come back to these meetings.
Don Williams:† Squeaky wheel gets the oil sort of thing, I hate to say that cause of this type of situation.
Carl Conner: This is one time Iím not going to support one of my members. I think we need to make a motion here to get it on record. I make a motion that the County Engineer work with the County Surveyor look at the present plans on Crystal Court and take a look of that drain that runs through there also and see what we need to do to resolve that matter and come back to this Board with a recommendation and the cost because thatís going to be another issue that weíre going to have to deal with is a source of funding.
Don Williams:† Do we have a second?
Phil Baxter:† Second
Motion was made and seconded. Motion carried 3-0.
Mike Morris:† Mike
Carl Conner: I asked that question earlier today? Not to Jim but to someone else.
Mr. Morris: Nothing, itís still there, itís still putting horseshit on the street.
Don Williams:† Has IDEM come out and checked that Mr. Morris?
There was an interruption with phones ringing and people talking.
Mr. Morris: Could I have a response to that? We still got the horseshit coming down the street.
Don Williams:† My question to you Mr. Morris was has IDEM been out there and actually looked at it?
Mr. Morris: No, not that Iím aware of. The only one that Iíve seen out there looking at it was Mr. Connerís and Jim was out there. But IDEM has not made any improvement whatsoever. But thatís only part of it. The other part of it is every time you guys come out there you come out when itís not raining.
Jim Niemeyer: I was out there Saturday.
Mr. Morris: You know Iíve told you guys that sooner or later someone is going to pay a price for this because all that water coming down into our subdivision is going to cause something drastic to happen. It happenedÖ.we had a mustang hydroplane come up and go right over and like about 3-foot of going into Willow Pond Ditch and if it would have it would have killed both occupants because that water was at least 8-10-foot deep and it was rolling so hard that it looked like white water rafting. Itís got to the point that the residents are going down and cleaning out the basin where the water comes into it and sometimesÖthis is every time it rains and if you donít get to it then it goes across and into Halston and Halston gets a lot of our water. The bus dropped off the kids in water that was at least 12-16 inches and let them walk home in the middle of all that water, with the water pushing across the road at Halston it could have swept those kids off their feet and it could have put them right in that ditch and you couldnít have got to them until they hit the river. Now youíve had two incidents that youíve been lucky with so far, youíve had the mustang and that kid was supposed to be her today but I donít see him, but it drowned out his mustang and there is a report with the sheriffís department and if it would have went 4-6 more feet it would have dropped him off into that ditch you wouldnít have been able to get to him the water was so swift.
I have called SIGECO and told them that their transformers are under water, they told me, that ainít no problem just donít go in the water.
Carl Conner: Is this on your side of the street or the other side?
Mr. Morris:† My side, how deep does it have to get before you recognize it?
Don Williams:† I think we recognize it since Framewood has had a problem for some time. We have talked about solving your problem three years ago but the residents would notÖ.
Mr. Morris: Hey, you talked about going up on Lincoln Avenue digging a ditch and bringing this ditch right here that your seeing is flooded and bringing Lincoln Avenue into this, well thatís only going to increase the flooding† in our subdivision more.
A lady in the audience asked Mr. Williams to finish what he was saying about the residents wouldnít what?
Don Williams:† Well, if I recall and Commissioner Conner can correct me if Iím wrong but we addressed this and we had Iím trying to remember Carl, remember we were going to put a ditch through there and nobody wanted us to put a ditch across the back of their property to get rid of the water. Itís been several years I had to go back and check the records but it seems to me that was part of it. I donít have a map of the subdivision here butÖ..
Mr. Morris: Weíre asking for somebody to come in there with
enough intelligence to look at the situation to see it for what it is which
hasnít been done yet. Youíve got farm land on the other side of
Do you mean on
Mr. Morris:† Why
couldnít you takeÖit sounds to me, now Iím not an engineer or anything like
that, but if youíve got a situation like this you would want to get the water
in and out of a subdivision or an area as fast as possible or with the least
amount of damage to the property owners. Why not cut three accesses across
Carl Conner: I wouldnít know the answer, Jim would probably know the answer, I thinkÖ..
Mr. Morris:† Whatís going to happen when Iím down there cleaning that concrete bunker that you guys put in down there by our subdivision, whatís going to happen when I go down there and try to clean that out and one of these transformers short out? They told me to stay out of the water, but if I stay out of the water then our subdivision floods worse than what itÖ.it goes across the road the school buses come down that road. I sat out there and Bobby Howard came up there and pulled up beside me as I was cleaning out that bunker ( thatís what I call it cause it looks like one) and I stopped because a school bus was coming down Frame Road so fast and I got out in the road to try and slow them down because I was afraid they would hydroplane because of the deep water and you couldnít see the curb. I got cars to go slower also and that water rose inches and by the time I got back it had already completely submersed and it was just a whirlpool out there. But Iím telling you itís just a matter of time, youíre buying time and itís catching up with you.
Carl Conner:† If I may make a comment I think that probably what we need to do is take the plans that we did develop for the water issue a number of years ago because you all have been here routinely and everybody I would assume has seen those plans and see if there is another way that it can possibly be engineered to resolve the issue without bringing everyone in that subdivision into play because the problem has been the solution that the County felt was the best solution to the drainage problem not only affects the people down on Old Hickory where you two live but also it affects the people, is that Basswood that runsÖ.but it also would affect the people that live on Basswood. So, what my suggestion would be unless somebody else has a better one, weíll just pool alternatives, we have them all on file, they were developed by the engineers and have them look at that and see if there is a solution to your problem that may very well not involve the people that live basically above the intersection of Framewood Drive and Old Hickory. Now, the other issue in regards to what I would think would be his primary concern about the horse manure coming down off that hill, Jim, in my opinion needs to get with the health department immediately and follow up with IDEM because they are in violation of state law and the last time I was out there, I donít know who ran the pipe, who ran the pipe between theÖdid you run the pipe?
A gentleman answered but it was inaudible.
Carl Conner: From that drainage thing out into the street, that has to be eliminated, you canít keep dumping manure out in that street and I think everybody recognizes† that and we need to move immediately on that Jim with IDEM.
Don Williams:† I would think even civil action would apply from the law stated previously about the higher property draining on the lower property like that.
Linda Morris: My name is Linda Morris 8911 Framewood Drive. Are storm sewers a possibility in our subdivision? We have no storm sewers and thatís part of our problem because all of the water running from the top of the hills which are both sides, weíre in a valley and we have no storm sewers to carry the water away out away from us rather than itís just trickling down through everybodyís yard.
Mike Morris: In the original package the developer Gore and all of them, the two other idiots they had with them, they had that there were storm sewer in Framewood Estates I, itís on the plot, it never happened. The pipes and everything were put in a vacant lot across the street from me and then all at once they disappeared and then all at once Frank Forbes (?) had a nice drainage system going all the way down the road. I thought man, that looks pretty good. We donít know if thatís where it went, but Iíd say, if I was a betting man, it looked good.
Linda Morris: But it is a bad problem with the water going
Don Williams:† †I think what your husband said earlier, if I might interrupt you, is correct, we have got to figure out a way to get the water away from the subdivision, getting it into legal drains. This Board has no authority to do anything as far as storm sewers are concerned. Our authority is over legal drains, pretty much, period unless someone is obstructing a natural water flow.
Linda Morris: Who do we go to?
Don Williams:† Right now we have the Board of Commissioners that you go to, right now the only thing we havenít done is we have a storm waterÖputting in a new storm water management for MS4 and also weíre going to be handling drainage issues, probably throughout the County with this particular instrument which is not in place yet, weíre having a rate meeting, I believe next week. So, thatís all coming but it doesnít help you all now, of course. But as far as getting a legal drain cleaned and trying to get the water from the subdivision to that legal drain, the Commissionerís can be of some service. This Board has noÖÖ..
Carl Conner: And we do have plans, if you all recall, I think we had three options, you may not have reviewed all three options, but I feel quite confident we had at least three options that were developed by the Engineer.
Mr. Morris asked the audience members if any of them had seen any options and the audience answered no.
Carl Conner: We can pull them and what weíll have to do is have the engineer lookÖ.
Mike Morris: I have one option and that one option is
bringing all those ditches across
Mrs. Morris:† We canít take any more water.
Don Williams:†† Is that a legal drain there he is referring to. It was discussed that this was a legal drain† the drain across the street which is Willow Pond is also a legal drain.
Mrs. Morris: Not only is our ditch flooding from too much water, the water that is coming down Frame Road which they put drainage things in Frame Road, itís bypassing the drains because theyíre all set to the right and the water is bypassing, coming straight down into our ditch and helping flood it faster and thatís whatís causing all the water to cross Frame Road and then go into Halston Manor and it goes down at least two drains on a not real downpour, it goes down in their storm sewers at least two drains down the street. We have at least 25 kids that catch the bus there in the mornings and evenings they are dropped off and like Mike said they had to drop the kids off in about a foot of water.
Carl Conner: So youíre talking about the water coming off the hill by the water tower, but it is in the gutters?
Mrs. Morris: Itís in the gutters, but itís shooting into our ditch at the bottom and making our ditch flood even faster than it floods.
Carl Conner: See, in my opinion that shouldnít be a major project to change that because the water draining off the hill coming down the road. I mean if itís actually in the road Right-of-Way in the gutters and the curbing that we put in when we improved the planÖ
Mike Morris: The curbing, the problem with that is, the curbing sets out about two foot where your drains are. The water coming off that hill at that velocity canít make a right turn yet.
Carl Conner: No, but what Iím saying is that if the water is staying in the road Right-of-Way, if itís in the curbs that we put in when we made the improvement, I think would be only minor changes for purposes of us being able to catch that water.
Mike Morris: Open it up more
Carl Conner: Yeah, and I donít think that would be a major issue.
Don Williams:† Soundís to me like weíre going to put that new excavator to work.
Mike Morris: But the thing of it is, I think that all of you agree, we would be willing to do what you wanted to do the first time, it would be feasible, but we live there and we know that the ditch behind my house at timesÖ..itís all on my property, itís not in the easement, I want to make that perfectly clear to you.
Don Williams:† And we understand that.
Mike Morris:† Itís on
my property, all of it and weíre willing to do it, but you can see weíre
floating the transformers now, we canít spend any more water coming down off
Don Parke:† The last
time I was hereÖIím Don Parke, I live at
Itís time that correction be changed, but we have a problem that needs to be solved in hindsight and Iím asking you to solve that problem. We canít solve it by band-aids. My 200-300- feet of digging ditch is my band-aid on my property.
Don Williams:† †Please, if you would just take a couple of minutes as we are aware of the problem, thank you.
Chris Campbell:† I
donít think this will take very long, Iím Chris Campbell and I live on
Carl Conner: Basically, based upon our legal right as the Drainage Board, we have a right to pursue the developer if the plans that have been given to this Board for approval because now you need to file a drainage plan that has to go through the engineer and the surveyor and they have to come back and tell us that all of the specifications that are being made by the developer for drainage such as retention ponds, pipe sizes and all that have been met and then basically we ask questions in regards to the plans and if we have any questions or any directions we would like to make, we make those.
Ms. Campbell:† So they can expect when that procedure is done, that all has been done that was approved.
Carl Conner:† Thatís what Iím asking him to see if all of the requirements have been met that were in the drainage plan that was filed with this Board. Now backÖ.
Ms. Campbell: What if you findÖ.Iím sorry for interrupting youÖ..if you find that theyíre not then what do you do to make sure that they are?
Carl Conner:† Well, we have legal recourse to the best of my knowledge against those, I wonít say against, but we do have legal recourse to try to have those issues fixed and brought up to the standards this Board required. Now, I think IÖmaybe I donít know where your going with your questions but your looking at a subdivision that was built in 85 almost 20 years agoÖ..
Ms. Campbell: Well, it had to have begun before 85 because I lived there in 85 and let me just tell you where Iím going with thatÖ.the way I understand is that our developer had an approved plan for drainage for that subdivision that was supposed to be adequate for future increased volume of drainage that had it been put in like it was supposed to have been and approved by the Drainage Board would have been adequate forÖit would have had a swale way all the way across the north side of my property which abuts the property where a big source of horse manure and extra drainage that Mr. Clinger is having a problem with and it would have been natural swale-way that diverted the water both ways there would have been drainage. But between my property and his that carried water down from the north to the south and there would have been drainage pipes in the subdivision and he failed to do that, I understand the Drainage Board did take immediate action and reprimanded him in some way, enough so that he did bring in the pipe to do that project and then over the course of some time, somebody dropped the ball. Is it too late to take some recourse there, I mean is this something that the Asher subdivision people are going to have to worry about that some years later they are still going to be fighting that and is there no recourse for us to get some action to get that drainage pipe in, are we caught in limboÖ.what is our nextÖÖ?
Carl Conner: I think what we need to be doing is that we need to be working with the group from your area in an attempt to resolve these matters as I said, weíve looked at these matters before, weíve had what we felt were appropriate solutions to those problems in regards to pursuing a builder or developer in your area, Iíd have to have legal input, but if I was a betting person, I would say thatís not a source of any recovery because that company went into bankruptcy, how many years agoÖ..
Mr. Morris:† But heís still building
Carl Conner:† And in fact, one of those owners is now even deceased. SoÖ.
Ms. Campbell: But that responsibility did lie with you though, not with us, is that correct?
Carl Conner:† That responsibility would have been in my opinion with the County back in 1980 something, when someone was sitting here in my position and said yes, you know, these plans are approved by us and then they need to be sure to hold the developer accountable to what was approved.
Ms. Campbell:† Okay, and it didnít happen.
Carl Conner:† Apparently not, but I canít say whether it did or it didnít because I wasnít here then.
Ms. Campbell:† Okay and the problem with the people owning property that have, you said was a State issue where the drainage and the erosionÖÖ
Carl Conner: What I said was, the manure situation and we need to make contact with the Health Department and with IDEM, donít we, Jim?
Ms. Campbell:† And youíre going to handle that?
Carl Conner:† Jim through the Surveyorís Office will contact them because that was one of the questions that we were just off the cuff talking about earlier today was we were wondering what had happened to that situation, because the last time I was out there he still had his pipe or whoever put the pipe in, but they still had the pipe draining that manure andÖ.
Ms. Campbell:† Heís not the problem though, heís trying to take care of Ö..
Carl Conner:† Iím not saying the person with the pipe is the problem, what Iím saying is that they are trying to address the problem that we need to get the problem resolved because we donít need to have a pipe in there draining manure out into the street. Thatís what Iím talking about.
Ms. Campbell:† So how do we follow up with that?
Carl Conner:† Well, MrÖÖJim Over here, the Surveyor is going to follow up with the Health Department and IDEM and to see where they are, cause thatís really in my opinion I think because IDEM has been involved, thatís not our issue, weíre just trying to move it along.
Ms. Campbell:† Okay and then the third thing that you mentioned was you had some proposals from three years ago that we were supposed to have seen.
Carl Conner:† Well, 3 or 4 years ago because we had several meetings, we met in this room a couple of times andÖ.
†Ms. Campbell: The majority of the problem that issued was the waterÖ..
Don Williams:†† I hate to cut this off, but weíre an hour and 40 minutes into another meeting, so I need to cut off this discussion, Sir, do you have something you want to say, we understand the problem. Weíll address the problem, so go ahead and make your point.
Jim Cahill: 8866 Bayberry Drive, when the water, when the rain comes, the gentleman left the microphone to show pictures and was inaudible.
Don Williams told the gentleman he needed to go back and get on the microphone to get it on the record and to please be as rapid as possible.
Mr. Cahill: We have a ditch on my property and I maintain that, thereís never been anyone else that has done anything for it. I hauled rip-rap and rip-rapped it up the side when my house was built so I could maintain the bank and the yard. Right now there is a cavity about 3-foot square and about 2-foot deep where the water is washing up under the street. The County came out there and rip-rapped on where that ditch makes a turn, that street goes down there and there is no cul-de-sac or nothing and all the water runs off there and it is a constant problem trying to keep all of that intact. That needs to be addressed, you need catch basins or something there.
Carl Conner:† The ditch that youíre talking about does that run at the end of Bayberry. Okay so itís at the end where Josh Denton used to live.
Amy Clutter:† My name
is Amy Clutter and I live at
Al Salhoff: My name is Al Salhoff and I live at 8564 Framewood.
Amy: We live in the upper part of
Mr. Williams asked her to also return to the microphone.
Ms. Clutter: She stated that she wanted everyone to see the pictures. The County came out and re-did our cul-de-sac, put another drain in through the natural drainage path on the left hand side and in doing so, in the past, itís hard to explain because the street was almost kind of domed in a way so that the water could run around the edges instead of straight down the street into my drive-way which is what itís doing now and for me the biggest help would be if I could just get that re-domed, is the engineers could come out and take a look at it. These last few rains weíve had have come into my garage, Friday night when I was at work, about 2/3 of my garage is now covered with mud and I had to put towels inside my garage to keep water from getting in, but it still came in.
Mr. Salhoff: Real quick, the drainage that is going across my property 8564 Framewood is at the street and the street is eroded underneath. Iíd say there is a 15-foot cavern underneath the road. This is going to cause that road to collapse.
Most of the mud is coming above my location primarily due to improvements that another neighbor made which consisted of 70 truck loads of dirt to put a flat spot in where there is a valley. So the mud is coming from the top of the ridge.
The Board thanked him.
Don Williams:† Does anybody have any comment (the Board) other than we need to address the trying to get the water out of that subdivision. Do we need a motion on that?
Carl Conner: I think so, does anybody want to make a motion on that?
Don Williams:† I donít know what motion to make.
Carl Conner:† Well, Iíll try. I would move that we continue to work with neighbors in Framewood and we have the Engineer pull the old plans that we looked at a number of years ago and see if thereís anyway that they can be revised whereby we can drain the water away without involving the people in what I think of as section 1 of that subdivision and also I would ask that Jim immediately follow up with IDEM and the Health Department because that horse manure situation has to be resolved.
Don Williams:† Iím not so sure that the residents donít have some legal recourse against their neighbor.
Carl Conner:† Thatís my motion, Phil Baxter second the motion. Motion was passed 3-0.
Michael Fox stated that† he lived at 8844 Framewood, Mr. Niemeyer gave me the name of a gentleman at IDEM to contact about the horse manure problem, I contacted him and he relayed to me that it was not the Stateís problem because it was not new construction at that site. He referred me back to the County, thatís where weíre at with that.
Don Williams:† I would defer to our Attorney, but Mr. Attorney if you have neighbors that are affecting your property like that, I think you would have legal recourse. I donít think the manure is necessarily a County problem. I think it is a resident county between the two and I think itís a civil problem. I would take to that neighbor and ask him to cut the flow of the horse manure and if he didnít, I personally would find me the smartest attorney I could find and go after him.
Mike Fisher came back to the podium with the audience telling him to let the other people state their problems.
Mike Fisher: According to County ordinances, it says any alteration of the natural flow of water and that is exactly what they are doing.
Don Williams:† Sir, I did not talk about the natural flow of water, Iím talking about the horseshit coming down the hill.
Mike Fisher: Itís coming down through a pipe.
Don Williams:† †Itís coming down through a pipe?
Audience members were saying no it was not.
Carl Conner No, itís not, youíve been out there many a time with me, you know thatís not coming down through that pipe, itís draining off that hill, down into that basin and then someone put a pipe into that basin and theyíre draining it out of that basin, then down into your street. But itís basically open, itís laying on the surface of the ground.
(Audience members applauded)
Donna Potts: Donna Potts,
Martha Custis:† Martha
Custis, I live at 4422 Larch Place, I live up closer to Lincoln and Iíve lived
there 20 years and it has rained really hard in the past, our street floods,
last year it not only flooded, it is like 4-5 feet into the neighbors yard
across the way and 4-5 feet up in our drive-way now. Where it comes from
Hilda† Cartagena: My
name is Hilda Cartagena and Iím Donnaís neighbor and I live at
We are very fortunate but some of our people have water in
their yard and garages but you donít have water in your basement or in your
homes, we have, so we come to you. First of all, I have two things to ask you,
first if any new development or any new builder comes and builds something make
sure that the drainage system is right and ok and will not affect all people
and all subdivision. Same thing, I donít know if you have this capability but
you need to call FEMA as we need help to be called a disaster area in
Doug Warner: Iím Doug Warner at
Sean Owen: I just want one thing, as far as the apartments are concerned and I have gone out and surveyed it and did find some inconsistencies, Jim has been on the phone all day getting ahold of them and set up meetings and that situation is going to be taken care of and another thing is what is in common with all of these problems is all of this water flows North into Edwards Ditch into Weinsheimer into Pigeon and down through Vanderburgh County. So itís something that we definitely looking at very seriously on tryingÖ.
Carl Conner:† And my understanding is, weíve discussed your problem and I donít mean to cut you off, you can say anything you want to say after I shut up, but I was out there and Iíve been out there several times, I know that you all have a severe problem and Jim was out there also on Saturday when I was there and we had talked about some things and I brought some information back to the other Commissioners on Saturday on the telephone. I think that basically Jim, you jump in here if Iím wrong, but I think part of the solution weíve already started on trying to determine whether the apartments are consistent with what they should be doing. Secondly, Edwards Ditch is a major issue with the Surveyorís Office and weíre trying to clean it out. Now, in addition to that I feel like after being out there, there are probably several other things that we need to be doing, one thing is that ditch behind the houses, that ditch runs off of Lincoln Avenue, runs directly down through the subdivision that you live in and then it comes down to the apartments there somewhere close to the Eiseleís and makes about a ninety degree or something and then goes down that way. I think what we need to be doing is we need to get in there and start at Lincoln and we need to clean out that entire ditch down and around the curve there† (applause from audience) however, we have a legal issue because itís not a legal drain and what I think that we need to do is we need to go through the process and Iíll put this in the form of a motion, but I think we need to go through the legal process to get that drain a legal drain and then at that point and time the County can go in there, whether we do it ourselves in house or we hire a contractor. We can go in there and we can clean that ditch out. I mean it goes like this and there are trees overgrown and it impedes the flow of water through there and I think thatís something that we need to move on quickly.
Lady talking-may be Ms. Potts:† Yes, also beyond us behind the apartment all the way to Schnucks, that also needs to be addressed. Youíre taking that as part of our ditch, ok thank you.
Yes, but I want to start at the beginning of the subdivision where it
There is a procedure where we can make a legal drain outside of city
limits, they do that in
Carl Conner: But, do we not need to do that by passing some kind of local ordinance. What Iím saying is do we not have a process now because we went through this process to help people in Elberfeld so we can do that again to get this taken care of.
A gentleman in the audience asked that they also look at the new church that was built on the corner of 261 and Lincoln, he stated there was about 5 inches of water running across that intersection coming off that parking lot of the church.
Joe Gidrey: Joe Gidrey 4355 East Birch. First I would like to thank Carl for coming out Saturday to show some of that support that we need from all of you. One of the things I did want is concerning the Edwards ditch which you have already discussed. I did come up here to take a look at the Surveyor about that apartment fence and it is showing that where should be a retaining wall, but I didnít know if it went all the way back roll but it did show that they had to have a 2-foot retaining wall before that fence was even built. So I donít know if that was to keep their water on their side or to keep our water on our side, but right now there is just a dog eared fence.
Don Williams:† You cannot impede a natural drainage and it appears that they have done that and they have already started talking to them.
Mr. Gidrey: your right I saw it on the plans and I appreciate your time and effort.
Amy Wells:† Amy Wells 8155 Birch Drive, the water that runs by my house and my ditch is clear, it runs like a river, I donít have the Ohio River, I have the Newburgh River running through my back yard. If we as homeowners are supposed to keep that ditch clean then shouldnít Schnucks also have to keep their side clean as it is overgrown and my part is clean. It runs fast with dog poop and all, I even kicked a fish back in it Saturday and if they would keep their part clean it would help.
Carl Conner: I just asked our Attorney and he said about 4-weeks. Now that doesnít take into consideration having to go out and get someone to do it, but to make it a legal drain.
Ms. Wells: It flows so hard in back of my house that small children could be lost.
Becky Toothman:† My
name is Becky Toothman and I live at
Brian Fossmeyer: My name is Brian Fossmeyer and I live on
4433 E. Birch, I actually face Chestnut but my address is on Birch. The postman
loves me. I donít have any plans, I just have a couple of questions. Also on
Oak off of
Don Williams:† Are you talking about a road? If you have damaged roads, let the Highway Department know. I think our Superintendent is here, so I think heís got it.
Mr. Fossmeyer: I just wanted to know if we were also addressing the overflow over Chestnut into that concrete ditch that runs in the middle of the neighborhood, I know we have a big problem on the 261 Lincoln side, but there is also the Lincoln side that has the Oak Street, I didnít know if you were familiar with that. I do have sympathy for all my neighbors and would be glad to help sandbag if anybody needs it.
Alphonso Dennis:† Iím just here for support for my neighbor on Birch, but I do have issues that Iíve had in the past and for some reason this time I didnít get flooded, but IÖmy name is Alphonso Dennis and I live on 8299 N. Larch Place. Iím the neighbor to one of the ditches that carries the water down through my yard and sometimes into my house. This Friday night I did get water in my garage and I got out and started pumping water out. I didnít realize how bad it was until Saturday when I got back and seen the sandbags. Iíve just not complained before as I just thought it was because of where my house was located. My granddaughter wonít use the bathroom any more because the water comes up in the toilet and my wife has threatened to divorce me because she wants to move and I donít want to, so if I can do anything to keep the water from coming into my place with causing anyone else damage, I would do it as I am the low one and wondering if itís going to come into my house.
JoAnn Eisele: Iím JoAnn Eisele at
Sean Owen: I do have one comment, as far as changing the level of the property, Indiana has a law they adopted called the ďCommon Enemy RuleĒ allows anyone to change the height and slope of their property, as long as their not concentrating water and pushing it onto you, if they are just changing the elevation or the slope of their land then itís State law.
Ms. Eisele: So if you can prove that it affected you, it doesnít matter. So we need to contact Mitch Daniels and President Bush.
Carol Gudrey: Carol Gudrey,
Carl Conner: According to our Attorney, it will take about 4 weeks for us to get through the process in making that a legal drain, but you have to take into consideration that everyone that is adjacent to that drain will have an opportunity to express their opinions and you may very well have some opposition to us legalizing that drain. But, if there is no opposition, if we get the publication, he is saying it will take about 4 weeks. Now after it becomes a legal drain, then it will be left up to Mr. Niemeyer to go out for bids and bring those bids to this Board for purposes of determining who is going to be hired to do that work and so youíre probably talking about another couple of weeks in regards to that. Some of this has already been put into process, not the legal drain per say but they are working on Edwards Ditch whichÖ..
Lady: Is that the ditch on East Birch?
Carl Conner †Itís on the back
Sean Owen:† Itís actually the ditch that runs in front of Pizza Hut and then cuts up North, but it all goes to that point.
Carl Conner:† In addition to that they have already made contact with the apartment owners, I understand to determine if they can get something worked out with them because Iím hearing that they have went out and checked the drainage plans and the drainage, actual drainage development is not consistent with the plans and so we are moving in the direction to correct the situation over there and like I said that was probably startedÖ.because weíve been out there before and we do recognize you have a real problem out there and weíre moving as fast as we can.
Phil Baxter: If I can Iíd make a motion that we have our attorney start proceedings
Gentleman from the audience stated he had one quick comment. Mr. Williams asked him to please wait as there was a motion on the floor.
Phil Baxter: to make this ditch into a legal drain and get the paperwork started as soon as possible and we can proceed from there.† Carl Conner second. Motion carried 3-0.
Carl Conner: The only thing I would like to add to
that is from
Sean Owen:† We could actually extend Edwards Ditch, well itís all underground..
Don Williams:† We donít need any comments, Sir go ahead and state your point.
Manny Rydholm:† Iím
Don Williams:† Absolutely, and one of those rights is easements on both sides of the ditch to get in to clean it.
Mr. Rydholm:† Okay, I will be very interested in what we are signing onto, I mean having a clean ditch is important, but I think getting the water out of there and trying to prevent more water from coming in is even more important because there is someÖ
Don Williams:† If you want the County to do the work, the only option we have is to make it a legal drain, we canít do it on private ditches and coming along with that typically in a legal drain it gives the County a 75-foot easement on both sides of the ditch to take equipment to clean it. Now, in this situation where there is already residents,† we will probably reduce it to what we call an urban drain, which is only 30-feet.
Mr. Rydholm: And youíve got houses even closer than that in some cases, but thatís an issue.
Don Williams:† So we do understand we have issues and we may not be able to do it at all.
Carl Conner: Thatís from the top of the center of the ditch, top of the bank.
Mr. Rydholm: Weíll work through that but thatís going to be of interest too. And the other thing is Iíve heard the comment about cleaning out Edwards Ditch and I hope that is cleaning and widening because Iím not convinced with all the water I see down there that just cleaning it is adequate. I just wanted to make that comment. The other thing is that there is another development going in with that ditch being already so full, we donít need to be adding to the problem we need to keep it under control from now on. There is a new development going in between Libbert and Bell and 66 and I know there is a drainage pond in that and I asked when you look at that field, the field had berms on the edges and just about that whole field was a retention pond and now youíve got a retention pond that is a lot smaller, so I really ask you, if might already be approved but you need to go back and look and say have we done the job this time to keep this from being worse than it is now.
Greg Ashby: Iím Greg Ashby, I live at
Don Williams:† Youíre talking about 6 years before this, thatís for sure.
Mr. Ashby: I understand that, but he got his done so why canít we get ours done?
Phil Baxter: What is the address?
Don Williams:† As I recall that was at Wal-mart at 10:00 at night, I do remember that.
Mr. Ashby: Iíve tried to find the right people up here and Iíve called channel 25 to get somebody to do something† about it because my mom doesnít have any income coming in so she canít pay for it. I know that the law states that you can make water pour on somebody elseís lawn and you canít do anything about it and I think that ought to be changed also.
Don asked Sam to get the address and to contact this gentleman.
Don Williams:† We gave claims in the amount of† $2,388.29, do I have a motion?
Carl Conner: So moved
Phil Baxter Second
Motion was made to pay claims and seconded. Motion passed 3-0.
Bill Bivins: Iíd like to clean out a
Don Williams:† So youíre looking for our permission? Go ahead, Carl
Carl Conner: I would move that we approve the request to clean out the ditch (Tanglewood) from Sandals over to Gardner-Webb. Seconded by Phil Baxter. Carl added at no cost to the County. Motion was made and seconded. Motion passed 3-0.
Don Williams:† I would like to apologize to those here for the Commissionerís Meeting, on the other hand when you have 6-8 inches of rain in 8 hours you are going to have flooding, no matter what you do. But we will do everything we can legally do.