OCTOBER 25, 2006

107 W. Locust St. Suite 303

Boonville, IN 47601




The Warrick County Drainage Board met in regular session with President Don Williams presiding, also in attendance were Phillip. H. Baxter, Vice-President; Carl Jay Conner, Secretary; Jim Niemeyer, Surveyor and David K. Zengler, Attorney for Board.


Minutes were recorded and transcribed by Cheryl D. Embry.


Audience attendance: Kim Blanchet, Donna Potts, Manny Rydholm, Jerry Schaperjohn, Helen Newton and





Don Williams: Warrick County Drainage October 25, 2006 will come to order. The first item on the agenda is the approval of October 11, 2006 minutes. Have you gentlemen had a chance to look over the minutes and if so I would entertain a motion.


Phil Baxter: Yes, I move that we approve the minutes from October 11, 2006


Carl Conner: Second.

Motion was made and seconded, all members voting aye. Motion carried 3-0.




Don Williams:Next item is Barnes & Thornburgh, I believe we have Kimberly Blanchet with us today from Barnes & Thornburgh to talk to us about a resolution weíre looking at for some of our drainage problems. If you would give us your name and who you represent and then go ahead and make your presentation, please.


Kimberly Blanchet:Good Afternoon, my name is Kimberly Blanchet and Iím with Barnes & Thornburgh in Indianapolis and Iím going to talk this evening to the Board about some of the options and the statutory provisions as relates to some drainage assessment, notes or bonds depending on what avenue we take. So, first of all I just prepared kind of a general time table without dates in it so you can understand what the steps are, so let me pass that out so we can read from the same thing.

Before we head down the proposed time table and talk about the specifics as relates to 36-9-27 which is the drainage law provisions in the Indiana Code. Lets back up a minute, I went through the preliminary study that was done, it looks like in 02 and it looks like there were a couple of options that were discussed in that study, one was actually just repairing and putting some culverts to keep the water flowing, the other option was on a much grander scheme which was actually reversing the water flow so I think it was trying to connect to the Ohio River at the closest point which was about a mile as opposed to sending it all the way down to some twenty miles. So obviously the cost in there arenot laid out specifically and the cost that were given were dated in 02 and are probably a little stale to say the least since itís been 4 years since the study.


Carl Conner:Excuse me, If I may say something, we will have an updated comprehensive plan, Jim is working with an Engineering Firm for the County.


Don Williams:Let me interrupt you if I may, what it is, itís the MS4, our consultant there is putting in master drainage plan especially for the southern part of the County where we have drainage problems.


Carl Conner: But part of that I feel quite confident will be the major portion of what you say in that study and that is the reversing of water instead of running north, running directly south to the river.


Kimberly:And that was option 2 I believe in that drainage study, the first option was a much simpler option of just kind of cleaning out and replacing what was there and then option 2 was the reverse flow option.


So that is kind of where I started and then what I did is I just kind of went through the procedures that were needed in order to accomplish as stated before, can we do this #1 and what is the time frame on this and this will kind of work you through what has to be done and then what we can do on round 2 on the time table is put in the actual dates. Which means it would correspond to a County Council meetings, Commissioner meetings and the like and your meetings. So letís just start down the time table, basically the first thing that would have to be done would be, Jim or the Warrick County Surveyor and his Deputy, Iím assuming that you have a Deputy Surveyor would prepare and file what the County Drainage Board, the Board, a reconstruction report. Basically, that reconstruction report would be very similar to the detailed study that you were talking about which would give the detail of what will be done ďquoteĒ ďunquoteĒ the project. I mean that is something that Jim would prepare. From that point what we would do is we would prepare a schedule of assessments containing the property descriptions of those benefiting from those improvements. Then we would figure out what the total cost of the project is and then we figure out some sort of percentage based upon that cost that will be allocated to each property owner. Now, Franklin County did this drain project back in 99 closed in 2000, it took about 6 months from start to finish on their drain project and they issued about $300,000.00 worth of notes for some drain projects that they had. They basically were trying to kind of work on the assessment on how to allocate the cost based on acreage is how they did it. Thereís no statutory provision that says you have to do it a certain way but it has to be somehow allocated based on some percentage of those who benefit from your improvements. Then what weíll do is the Drainage Board will set the time, date and place of a public hearing and what you would do is you would have the reconstruction report available as well as the proposed assessments and this isÖ.I donít know if youíre familiar with kind of the sewer bonds, but itís like a public hearing on rates basically. You would do your notices and compliance with your normal public hearing. The notice has to go out 10 days prior to the public hearing and weíll also publish that in the papers here. You will also have to mail the notice to each affected property owner, so anybody that would be subject to the assessment we would also mail that notice to them, and when we as bond counselor, note counsel will help you get that notice organized, prepared and out and published.


Carl Conner: Question. I guess I have a misunderstanding of what weíre speaking of but are we not speaking of a General Obligation Bonds?


Kimberly: No, you are speaking of Drainage Revenue Bonds.


Carl Conner: Okay, when I think of General Obligation Bonds, all County property owners would have a financial responsibility, under the bonds that youíre speaking of, youíre talking about looking at specific properties, so are you saying then that basically this does not work as a General Obligation Bond?


Kimberly: Yes, thatís exactly right. They are two separate entities or two separate animals, if you will. The General Obligation Bonds you can issue for any governmental purpose, they are issued by the County, they are for fire trucks, police cars, equipment, you know acquisition of land for any sort of governmental purpose. The issue with the General Obligation Bonds is it is subject to the 2% debt limit for the County. So, whatever the County has outstanding you take 2% of that amount and you take a 1/3 thereof and thatís how much you can issue as your general obligation.


Carl Conner:So, then the structure that the bonds that youíre speaking of then really is outside of any maximum or umbrella.


Kimberly:Absolutely, these are what you would technically call Assessment Bonds, I mean if for lack of a better word, we call them Revenue Notes or Bonds because really theyíre payable strictly from and solely from these assessments which are considered revenues.


Carl Conner: Okay, but can these Assessment Bonds beÖif we do what weíre looking at doing as a comprehensive county wide drainage program, can we spread the financial responsibility of this just as we would a General Obligation Bond?


Kimberly: To every property owner in the County? We would have to because of statutory provisions under the drainage all say that it has to be someone that benefits from this project, so that would be a legal conclusion that I would work with, with the local attorney and we would get comfortable with the fact that at whoís benefiting from this, if you are directly or indirectly, then you could be assessed for that.


Carl Conner: So, then it will work in some respects or the mechanics of it from a reimbursement perspective the same as a General Obligation Bond?


Kimberly: Exactly, the only reason why you donítÖ..I should have explained that it was more of an Assessment Bond, a Note Bond, it is an obligation. You have an obligation to pay the principle and interest on these. The only reason why you donít out of the gate necessarily want to do a GO Bond is because then youíre tying up what could be for future use. Since you have the statutory provisions under the drainage law this is a great avenue to take because youíre allowed to do it and it frees up the general obligation money for other county projects. So, to kind of back up a little bit, the Public Hearing will be held, youíll have the reconstruction plan on file for someone to come in and inspect if they want. Youíre going to have the assessment on file prior to the hearing and as a Board with help from us will set the time and place of the public hearing, will send out the notice as we have to and then we can work with that to make sure itís in accordance with the 531 which are just the publication provisions. Then not less than 5 days before the hearing, if a property owner who is going to be affected by the reconstruction report or the assessment, basically if they are going to be assessed for this project. They can file with you (the Drainage Board) a written objection saying, I think this is unreasonable, Iím objecting to this assessment and there are several causes for those objections which we can get into more detail later as to what they can object to, that itís unreasonable, that the project is not to their benefit, those things. If there are no objections filed then we just proceed with the next bullet point which would be the conduction, youíre conduction of the public hearing. At that public hearing or at that meeting you would hold your public hearing normally the way we do, as public hearings are held right when the meeting starts or a little bit prior and then you open it for comment and then close it and then start your regular meeting. At the regular meeting you would approve the reconstruction report as well as your assessment and within that assessment you would also account for in your project costs, maintenance. So in that whole project description we will also have some sort of cost in maintaining this project. So, itís not finished and then all of a sudden thereís no funding to maintain what we just built. You would also adopt a resolution requesting the Warrick County Council to obtain a loan or issue the bond for this project, technically the issuer is the County, so the title of the Bond or the Note will say Warrick County Drainage Revenue Bond, Drainage Revenue Notes. It comes from recommendation from the Board, you guys are actually the ones that will be doing all the footwork in this, but the County has to approve the issue and that is statutory.

On page two, once that reconstruction of order and assessments are adopted at your meeting, we will publish a notice that says at such and such meeting we adopted this. This triggers what is another objection period, which is a 20 day in which people who are not in favor of this can request judicial review from the Circuit Court. If the 20 days comes and goes from the dateÖ.it runs from the date of publication, count 20 days, if thereís no petition filed which means they have to file a petition with the Court and they also have to post bond for this if they have some objection to it. Then we move on with the time table.

The next item would be that the County Council would consider and adopt a resolution authorizing this loan. Once that 20 period runs which is just continually running, the Council can go ahead and adopt that, then that Board resolution becomes conclusive. You canít take any further action until that 20 days has run in case thereís anyone that has filed anything with the courts.

When the Board is ready to let the contract, youíll publish a notice just as you would with any of your public works projects. Youíll determine the cost of the project, you will also be allowed for statutory provisions for a 10% contingency, so we can allow for in that project cost, letís say the project for just discussion sake is $200,000.00, you can allow for 10% $20,000 contingency in addition to your project costs in case the bids come in high and that is statutorily allowed.


Carl Conner: I have a quick question. Will the estimated cost of the project or projects, because it probably would be numerous projects combined into this. Will that determine the dollar amount of the Bond Issue or is there some kind of state statute that says that you can only issue a Bond for X number of dollars based upon some type of formula?


Kimberly:No, what we would do and what we would advise you along with the financial adviser who would work on this too or your essay. You would figure out costs of the projects on estimate, obviously you havenít bid the project yet, so youíre not going to have your final numbers, but itís like any other Bond Issue, you do a not to exceed amount and your resolutions. So, for instance on the $200,000.00 conversation, the amount we were talking, you can say we plan to issue Bondís in the amount not to exceed $300,000.00 or $250,000.00 so then if your bids come in a little high or a little low, youíre not obligated, thatís a ceiling, youíre not obligated to issue that amount. It just cannot go over that amount, if it does go over that amount, then we have to come back and amend the ordinance or the resolution. So, after you have figured out what youíre project cost are, youíre contingency, youíre maintenance is included in that, then we have to figure out what this assessments going to be for the property owners based on that cost and based on some sort of allocation. Then whatís prepared is called the ditch duplicate and that is sent to the County Auditor, who will deliver that to the County Treasurer, because this is kind of an assessment, so itís going to go on the property rolls, itís not a tax, itís an assessment. So, basically the person that owns that property the assessment ties into that parcel, am I explaining that correctly? So, if for some reason anybody is delinquent on their assessment, then you have a lien on that property. You can negotiate the sale of the Bonds or the Notes to a local bank, a local financial institution. Then, what you would do since this is new money coming into the County, you would have to do your appropriation public hearing and the resolution, because once that money comes in, youíve issue the bonds, itís going into your project account or a project fund, then you have to have the authority pursuant to the appropriation to spend that money. So, you would hold youíre additional appropriation public hearing, then you would adopt youíre additional appropriation resolution. Then the Warrick County Auditor would deliver the list of assessments based on the cost to the County Treasurer and then basically from then on youíre source of revenue for the repayment of these is solely based on the assessments coming in.

Now, the notes on the third page kind of give you a couple of things that I wanted to point out as I think they are important to know. If you issue Notes, they can be sold to a local institution, they can be negotiated, itís called a negotiated bail. These are normally no more than 5 years term, so if you issue them in letís just say 2007, theyíre not going to go out any further then 2012. Thatís pursuant to the stature, if for some reason we determine because of the size of the project, because of the cost of the project and the assessment would be too cumbersome for the property owners to go out on a 5-year assessment, we can go out longer, but then we would issue bonds. So, notes are basically kind of a shorter term obligation, the bonds are on the longer term.


Carl Conner: So, what is the cut-off, then on the notes?


Kimberly: Itís no more than 5-years for the notesÖ.


Carl Conner: Iím sorry, Iím talking about, is there a maximum dollar amount that you can recover through notes compared to bonds?


Kimberly: No, itís just a determination by the Board that the assessments would be unfair or excessive for the property owners over a shorter term.


Carl Conner: So, lets say, this is just an example, and the only reason Iím using this is just to clarify my own mind. Letís say that this project is estimated to cost 5 million dollars and we feel thatís 5 million with interest on a 5 year is excessive and a burden on the tax payers, then we can flip to a bond issue.


Kimberly:Thatís exactly right.


Carl Conner: That we could go 15-20 or 30 years on.


Kimberly: Longer maturity, yes. So what that does, it just spreads out your cost over a longer period, so instead of $10,000 debt service which is your payment of your principle and interest amount on the note and youíre spreading that out over a longer period of time so instead of 10 it becomes 4 or 5. Normally, the way it would work is once you issue those notes, letís just say for discussion purposes, that it sold to a bank, Star Bank, Old National, I donít know a local bank here is an option too, if for some reason we find that the cost is not prohibitive for the assessment purposes on a shorter term five years or less then you would make youíre principle and interest payments normally principal payments are made annually, so each year youíll make a principle payment and then the interest payments are made semi-annually, every six months and that is just pretty standard. Then the interest rate obviously is something thatís negotiated with the financial institution. If we issue bonds and we take it out to a public sale, that basically just means that we will set up a notice of Bond Sale with the underwriter or the financial adviser. They will go out and market these bonds and then that way weíll know a pretty good interest rate as well, once we get feedback from the FA on what theyíre thinking the market will tolerate. But, just to stress, this is not a general obligation of the County, this would be an Assessment Revenue Bond, if we go this route. Does anyone have any further questions?


Don Williams:If we do these Drainage Revenue Bonds or notes, how would that impact the Counties bonding capacity?


Kimberly:It will not. Now, if you issued them as GO Bonds, General Obligation Bonds, then it would because then youíre taking away their ability to issue. But, not it does notÖ.


Don Williams:So, youíre saying we canít do a General Obligation for this.


Kimberly:You can, you can do a General Obligation, but it would be subject to your 2% debt limit and a third thereof, whatever the County has outstanding totalÖ..


Don Williams:Letís say we haveÖ.. outstanding or the limit?


Kimberly: Outstanding. How much debt the County has outstanding, take 2% of that then take a third of that and that is your bond issue.


Don Williams:So, if the County has say $100,000.00 in debt that means you would divide it by 2?


Kimberly: Based on youíre AV, your assessed value.


Don Williams:Okay, so, what you oweÖÖÖIím not understanding.


Kimberly: Well, you take your full assessed value, take yourÖ.thatís your denominator, your numerator is how much outstanding debt you have and then you take 2% of that and a 1/3 thereof.


Don Williams:Okay, thatís good, I understand that.


Kimberly: So that we can quickly tell you, just based on numbers if we get if from the County Auditor what your capacity is today.


Carl Conner: Don brings up a very good question there and I guess youíve probably already covered this in your presentation, but it appears that the Bonding capacity of the County should really be circumvented if possible by utilizing these Assessment Bonds or Assessment Revenue Bonds instead of going to the General Obligation Bonds.


Kimberly: Absolutely, because then youíre freeing upÖ..thatís a determination to be made obviously with your recommendation on the County level, it goes againstÖ..it pulls out money from the County that would normally be spent on other general purposeÖfire trucks, police cars, equipment, you know repairs to your courthouse, jail whatever else. ThisÖ.with the statutory provisions that you have in place you have the statutory authority to issue these Assessment Bonds.


Don Williams:Okay, if there are no other questions. We appreciate your presentation, thank you very much.


Carl Conner: Very good, I appreciate it.


Don Williams:Our attorney, I assume has your card.


Kimberly:Yes, if you have further questions, which Iím sure you will as you read this in the evening to put yourself to sleep, then you can just call me the next day and I can answer them. Thank you very much.


Carl Conner:Thank you, it was very informative.


Don Williams:Drainage discussions, Jim.




Manny Rydholm: Iíve been here before, 8100 Larch Place North in North Green Springs Valley. Iím here mainly for some follow up to things that have been talked about recently in some of the meetings. We were wondering what the status of contacting drainage ditch owners is on those property owners north of our development where our drainage leaves our development, such as Schnucks, the Villaís and the apartments that are located there, have we made any progress on those items?


Jim Niemeyer:Yes and no, I contacted Schnucks and they are having a meeting with a contractor tomorrow to clean, I assume the north side of that ditch and the south side, now Iím just making these assumptions would be Ped-Corps, you know to do, but it was suggested that we probably ought to make that all a legal drain in there so that we can enter, cause right now we canít enter that property. But, if we had a legal drain we could, so thatís something that Iíll have to meet with Mr. Zengler about to establish that.


Mr. Rydholm:I had talked to Schnucks also, the desk corp person that handles the management of the property, a lady by the name of Pop (?), I forget her first name now. I have that and you got my e-mail on that. Also, in the past I had contacted them on a regular basis to try and get that ditch cleaned. I had success in getting the north side but they didnít want to do the south side. I also had followed up in the past with the apartments on the south side. I finally got a letter from their lawyer and I will try and locate that again, saying that is totally in most cases, itís a shared thing, but thatís totally cut on the Schnucks property and that ditch is not to the center. We ought to have information on that but, I had received a letter from their legal people and I will try to locate that if itís helpful. But, I again after some attempt to getwith one side or the other and when that one was in there before he took care of that whole ditch before that property was sold so I just mentioned that too. What Iíve seen so far indicated that is the exception but I think that ditch is totally on their property in this case. On Schnucks, yes.

I had a conversation with her and again I havenít had a commitment that they will clean that south side of theÖ.get down to the bottom and not do the far side and itís not because they donít feel itís their ditch at this point. Theyíre talking about we clean that out we have problems with people coming across the ditch or throwing stuff in from the apartments and that kind of stuff and I say if thatís the problem build a fence.


Don Williams:Absolutely.


Jim Niemeyer: Well, there are some blockages across that ditch because people have installed cement blocks so they can walk back and forth between there and the store. So, weíll need to go in there and have a look at that. But, there again Iím not sure we have the authority to do that.


Mr. Rydholm: If itís helpful, if a good part of the solution is to make it legal at least from the exit of our place down through those commercial properties you know, Iím all for that, but again Iíll call back again too if itís helpful just to put pressure on trying to get them to clean that south side out.


Jim Niemeyer: We also as a result of this study which was completed, we need to clean out the east side of that entire east ditch on the east side of the apartment complex because that was partly the cause of water back flooding into the system. It really got high so we need to do that as soon as we can. We either have to go through the legal drain process, I will contact the property owners as well, you know and itís really like a jungle in there.


Mr. Rydholm: And your talking about what would be adjacent to the Villa properties when you say the east side? Have we made any contact with the owners there to see ifÖ.


Jim Niemeyer: No, I have not. Iíve just finished this project and we got it surveyed. The water came within a foot of entering the east side of those apartments on the east side. Iím talking about Springview and water was within a foot of getting into the apartments.

It got up to an elevation of over 400-feet and the elevation at Mrs. Pottsís driveway was 402, they are just about flat. There is a lot of cleaning that could be done probably should be done.


Mr. Rydholm: Are you getting any cooperation at all or any indication from those folks at the apartments that they will address that?


Jim Niemeyer:Well, Iíll know tomorrow, we have a meeting in the afternoon at 1:00 p.m.


Don Williams:We are determined to get that problem taken care of, just so you know that. Whatever it takes.


Mr. Rydholm:My concern is, partly weíve gotÖthatís the right thing to do and weíve got to get it clean out and do the right thing, my concern is we still have a capacity issue but we certainly need to maximize what weíve got at the moment and go from there.


Jim Niemeyer: Thereís a couple of things, I just as well tell you, they need to insert all the downspouts, the gutter downspouts into the drain and that hasnít been done, they havenít built it according to plan and found out that the retention pond was not built to size, it was smaller that it was supposed to have been. That caused less retention and it wasnít a major factor in flooding but it did cause some flooding on the south side of the apartments along the residential side there. So that is something that theyíll have to address too.


Mr. Rydholm: Is that something you plan to discuss with them tomorrow?


Jim Niemeyer:Oh, yeah, Iíve got the whole report here and the survey data.


Mr. Rydholm:†† So then following that meeting I guess in the next meeting youíll have a report on what results weíve got or whether we have to do something from a legal stand point, I guess.


Don Williams:If you could Jim, when you get that done let the Board know, I mean it can just be handwritten, this is what transpired. I would appreciate it.


Jim Niemeyer:Okay


Mr. Rydholm: The next steps after that if they would refuse to make the corrections and what not, would that require some legal steps to get that addressed perhaps?


David Zengler: Thatís correct if they didnít build it pursuant to plans.


Don Williams:And even if itís not a legal water way if itís impeding a natural water flow, the bottom line is we can go do it and bill them for it, if itís determined thatÖ.

Thatís a process thatís got to be gone through to, but it wouldnít be the first time that weíve gone that route.


Mr. Rydholm:And you were out doing the survey, youíve already talked about. I wasnít sure what all you looked at with Donna Potts sitting back there her house is partly what youíre talking about in discussion with the apartments?


Jim Niemeyer: We did, I think there were 9 or 10 survey points that we checked the outflows on the retention pond. Basically, those elevations were the designed elevations and as built were fairly close. (He offered Mr. Rydholm a copy of the report.) I donít think itís anything confidential.


Don Williams:Itís public information.


Donna Potts:Donna Potts, 8286 N. birch Drive. If the retention pond size is the only issue, then why was there no water in it after the flooding, but my back yard had three feet of water, I donít understand that.


Jim Niemeyer:That retention or detention pond was built to be what they call a dry one, you know it doesnít retain water. We haveÖthatís a good point and I willÖI will be honest Iím not going to try and bluff you, but Iíll get an answer and Iíll have it tomorrow.


Donna Potts: I just didnít understand why my back yard was flooded and my neighbors went over there and theyíre retention pond had no water in it at all and that to me just seems backward.


Jim Niemeyer: I donít know why they did it that way, I would have horizontal drains all the way across it to the Schnucks ditch. But, I donít suppose they can do that.


Mr. Rydholm: When will the additional cleaning occur on Edwards Ditch, I know you got out there and did under the road?


Jim Niemeyer:We need toÖ..I finished a blank contract that I tried to design it up so that it would fit all of our endeavors, you know , ditch work and whatever and I finished it and I will provide Mr. Zengler with a copy of it for his review. Then we can prepare a bid meeting and have contractors go out and we need to determine how much we can do, how much we can afford to do. Weíve really got a bunch of projects that we can do.


Mr. Rydholm: So this is just one of many that youíre trying to put into a large contract of some type?


Don Williams:Thatís why weíre having this comprehensive plan put together, itís County wide as Commissioner Conner said many times, but the real emphasis is the southern part of the county where the real drainage issues are.


Mr. Rydholm: Itís in that area as part of this thing then to be affected, that was being talked about in the bonds and the assessments that would cover that?


Don Williams:Yes


Jim Niemeyer:We need also to finish the Howard-Williams Ditch cleaning program, there is about 4,000 feet left and that will be a joint venture project with Vanderburgh County. Iíve already received a letter from one complex that states that the dam between their retention pond and Howard-Williams Ditch is getting mighty thin. It is going to be difficult because all the material that we dip out is going to have to be removed and hauled away and dumped. There will be a lot of loads.


Don Williams:It will make a lot of good rich compost.


Jim Niemeyer:If somebody needs good topsoil, there it is.


Mr. Rydholm: You mean all that stuff that comes out of Edwards has to be hauled off?


Jim Niemeyer:Well, what we try to do is spread it out as thinly as we can, say like up to no more than 6-inches, let it dry a little bit and then drag it out as far as we can into the fields because the farmers can incorporate that into his soil.


Carl Conner:However, we have been known to grant requests from time to time to individuals with gardens or anything else. Thatís top notch soil.


Mr. Rydholm: The other question is the water coming from First Christian Church, is there any chance to go back and look at what was done there from a retention stand point and to see if it was done as designed or is there any question about that?


Jim Niemeyer:Iím not sure that it was, I talked to my chief engineer and he is of the opinion that it was not, but Iíll verify that because there is retention on the back side of it but none for the parking lot.


Mr. Rydholm:It looks like the whole front end of the parking lot just slopes out and thereís a littleÖ..and perhaps, Iím not sure what happens coming off the building and everything else towards the front side so it could be part of that. I donít know till you look at whatís done with the down spouts and all that stuff. But the engineer will look at that and verify if there is an issue.


Jim Niemeyer:Weíll pull the drainage plans for that and check it out.


Mr. Rydholm: This drainage assessment thing I was wondering about is there is so much water coming off of Outer Lincoln and what not and that sort of thing, does this whole drainage thing just look at existing ditches or are we looking at how weíd also deal with all this water that comes off of Outer Lincoln that comes down the road and through our development, will this study that weíre talking about and some of the solutions, will it address those kind of issues?


Carl Conner: Absolutely, I think what we want to do isÖin this plan we want to take a look at al of the issues that we have and try to wrap all those issues into various projects whereby those issues can be resolved and itís not only just looking at a drainage ditch down Lincoln Avenue, is it big enough or does it need to be cleaned out? But we have a professional engineer that works for Jim on a contractual basis. Weíve been dealing with two other engineering firms, Bernardin & Lochmueller and Commonwealth. So, no we want to look at all the problems that we see out there. Now, I canít sit here and say that 100% of those problems are going to be recognized and addressed because weíre bound from time to time to miss something. But, when we talk about comprehensive, thatís what we as a Board and Jim truly mean. Thatís why weíre looking at some kind of financing mechanism because there is no way that we can fund all of these requirements that are going to need to be met. Weíre having difficulty now and I know that this is not your problem, but itís our problem, is weíre having difficulty now in funding what we are doing from the standpoint of trying to put this puzzle together and one of the questions that I has asked Kimberly when she was here, is and I threw out a number of 5 million dollars and Iím going to tell you right now as far as Iím concerned 5 million may be very realistic. I mean weíve got a lot of problems and we want to address those problems and as Don said 5 million may not be enough. But, when sheís talking$2-300,000.00, I think that sheís way off base.


Mr. Rydholm: Part of my concern is along with what weíre trying to address some of this thing and improve them a little bit compared with the issues we have to deal with.


Don Williams:We realize weíre going to have to do some band-aids, but our goal is the long term fix.


Mr. Rydholm: Because of the large amount of water coming through there, I know the road is going to get done for example and as soon as that gets wrapped into how you do that drainage and that kind of stuff.


Carl Conner:I donít know, youíre probably aware of this but we are to start construction first phase on Lincoln Avenue from the County line to the intersection of Grimm Road. I know thatís not to where your are at yet, but we will be working our way to that area and there is going to be major improvements to drainage along Lincoln Avenue, thatís why that project is going to cost us 10.1 million dollars or thatís the estimated cost is because not only are we dealing with just putting down a little asphalt. Weíre going to put down a lot of asphalt, weíre going to build that road so that road will last us for fifty years without any major constructions necessary unless we would have another tornado or something like that. But that includes major drainage and a lot of those hills are coming down, I mean at the intersection alone at Grimm, my understanding is thatís coming down somewhere from a minimum of 6-8-foot. Thatís a lot of dirt.


Mr. Rydholm: Iíve seen a time line, but I donít know when it is, when the section near us is to get done, my concern is that weÖ.is there anything we can be doing there because the roadís going to have such an impact on what you may do to drainage coming from the south portion of Green Springs, is there any stop gaps we can do to divert some water in the meantime and not necessary wait for that, cause I donít know if itís 2010 or where weíre at.


Carl Conner: I think the entire road is supposed to be done by 2010, Iím sorry, I canít remember all the dates, butÖ..


Mr. Rydholm: But, thatís maybe 3-4 years away and that is a lot of hard rains between now and then.


Don Williams: Weíre looking at it fixed long before that, at least short term.


Jim Niemeyer:Excuse me, are you the new Association President?


Mr. Rydholm answered that he was not that he was involved with the civic group which will deal primary with drainage issues.


Jim explained that all of the minutes were now posted on the web.




Jerry Schapejohn:Jerry Schapejohn 5977 Fiesta Drive. I wonít bore you with the hands out with the other problem, Jim has been out and weíve discussed maybe a holding pond at the beginning of the real base of the problem, but I know there is no money for there, to do anything there. I have Pfafflin Lake, Riceland about basically 3-4 different areas dumping down into an area that didnít used to be when I first built there 19 years ago. We built a swale down through my backyard, well that swale turned into a 3-foot ditch about 4-feet wide and getting deeper by the minute, along with flooding, erosion and everything else. During the winter, it would constantly have water in it forever, at the beginning of this summer I built a concrete swale because I got tired of harboring mosquitoes and things like that and to keep water flowing. I realize that Iím going to have some water, so I built a concrete swale about 450-feet of it and connected it to my neighborís property. Then henceforth comes the problem, he has then, thereís three properties before the Esche ditch, which is the main ditch line going through the area. He then put underground piping into take the water, he put in a 10-inch pipe and I then found out through talking to him that itís connected to an 8-inch pipe that is connected to an 8-inch pipe that goes into the Esche Ditch. Jim came out and surveyed the area and walked it through with me and told me that there is supposed to be 12-inch piping there at least. There just isnít enough piping there to take care of the water, henceforth my yard floods, my neighbors yard floods, heís even built when he put the piping in he actually built it up so that when it foods, his yard doesnít get flooded his water still comes over on our property and on top of that he also has a grate over the pipe. So, every time it rains, I donít care whether itÖthis whole area comes from a wooded area behind me, there is always stuff flowing down through there, I donít care whether we get a Ĺ inch rain or an inch of rain, Iím out there at 9:00 at night clearing out the grate because the yards flooding. Then I get up first thing in the morning at 6:00 before I go to work and go out and clean out the grate again, I removed the grate one time because quite frankly, Iím tired of it. I have been there for 19 years, Iím just tired of water. The grate is on his property, but he could care less, he built a privacy fence so he donít even have to look at the water flooding anymore. I have asked him, he wonít remove it, I removed it one time and he literally came over and said that he was sick and tired of me bothering his property and I said, well itís flooding our property, he said he didnít care he wanted it back on, I put it back on. I guess Iím looking for direction of how I canÖ.theyíre not going to replace their piping, that Ďs all on their property lines, heís not going to allow that grate to disappear, he says that if that piping clogs up, itís my problem cause itís my stuff thatís clogging it. Where do I go? My father told me to call him every time it clogged and have him come and clean it out because itís his property.


Carl Conner: I guess my first question is, Jim, is it a legal drain weíre dealing with?


Jim Niemeyer:No, on the back side of their property there is a 10-foot public utility and drainage easement.


Carl Conner: But itís not a legal drain? So, we have no legal responsibility for theÖ.


Don Williams:Is your neighbor impeding your water being discharged?


Mr. Schapejohn:Absolutely


Don Williams:I think heís gotÖÖI think youíve got a civil issue with your neighbor, it sounds to me like. You canÖcorrect me if Iím wrongÖbut if heís impeding that water and your property is being damaged because of if, then I think you have legal recourse against your neightbor.


Mr. Schapejohn:Do I then take all three neighbors, because all the piping is not up to grade, so to speak.


Don Williams:I mean, when you take piping and you go from larger to smaller, itís always going to back up.


Mr. Schapejohn:I know nothing is goingÖIím not unrealistic not knowing that like the pictures that Iíve taken here, whenever we got the heavy rains, there is no holding pond there, all H breaks loose, as Marsha would say when the gullywasher comes through, Iím not going to stop that. That is one of the reasons I put a concrete ditch in. Iíve also put in sod and rip rap to hold it and when it floods, it still floods over the place, but I think it should be an open ditch cause it actually needs about a 24-inch pipe and/or an open ditch to let it get out of there. But I just didnít know if I could get, they were talking earlier listening to them, that if, I didnít know if you could send out anything like that cause Iím not a going to court type of guy. If I wanted to go to court, I could have went there years ago.


Carl Conner: Well, our attorney can correct me if Iím wrong, but if itís not a legal ditch then we really have no legal responsibility what so ever.


Don Williams:I think the proper word is authority.


Carl Conner: Yes, we have no legal authority.


Mr. Schapejohn: You have no authority to write him a letter stating that and notifying all three of those people saying that it isnít a legal ditch and you should have an open ditch or a larger pipe? Thatís beyond your authority?


Carl Conner: See, thatís the problem since itís not a legal ditch or a legal drain anyway, we really donít have any rights or authority to do anything about it and I feel for your situation, but from a legal standpoint I donít think this Board can do anything and I guess that Don has pretty much summed it up, itís probably going to have to be, if you want to pursue it, itís probably going to have to be a civil suit.


Mr. Schapejohn:I just hate suing somebody when it seems like to me some type of step by you, since youíre the drainage committee would make some type of statement to them saying thatÖÖ.


Don Williams:Thatís almost a misnomer when you talk about the Drainage Board, our primary responsibility is the huge ditches that take the water away, thatís why we have some of these problemsÖÖ..


Mr. Schapejohn:Okay, and the holding ponds?


Don Williams:And the holding ponds on housing developments and things like that that have to be approved.


Jim Niemeyer: Is that Esche Ditch flowing behind your home?


Mr. Schapejohn: Not behind me, the Esche Ditch is to the north about 2 properties away from me.


Don Williams:I mean, the County Surveyor could look at it.


Jim Niemeyer: Weíve had different requests to have that declared a legal drain, but nobody wouldÖ..


Mr. Schapejohn:The Esche Ditch handles the water, but I was just questioning what I could do about my problem, whether you could make any statement on that. In other words Iíve been told this for yearsÖ.


Don Williams:Jim, you could take a look at that if you feel itís worth your while.


Jim Niemeyer:Well, I was just going to say that if heís just two properties away from Esche Ditch, then the thing I would do is declare it a legal drain if thatís possible and then we would have authority.


David Zengler:If itís that close you could maybe do a lateral or have a lateral of Esche Ditch.


Jim Niemeyer: See, thatís the one thing we need to find out is when you get into these older ones is how much right of way we can have.


Don Williams:Tell you what I would simply make a motion to have the Surveyor investigate it and give us a report back in two weeks. I need a second. I donít know if we can do anything, sir, but we can at least have the surveyor look at it.


Carl Conner: Second


A motion was made a seconded, all members voted aye. Motion passed 3-0.

Jim Niemeyer: I have one unannounced business matter.


Don Williams:Why?




Jerry Trehune: My name is Jerry Terhune, I live at 10922 Williamsburg Court in Colonial Hills Subdivision. Weíve talked about this, Iíve been here several times and Iíve talked to Jim several times on the phone and I guess my biggest concern is the fact that the run-off from the new subdivision behind me Fall Creek. It seems to increase every time we have a rain. Naturally thelast heavy rain we had was significant but I brought some pictures here and some of them are not the best.


Jim Niemeyer: He is part of the study that Bernardin & Lochmueller is doing.


Don Williams:Yes, we understand that.


Carl Conner:And that study has not been completed yet, has it?


Jim Niemeyer: No, all the surveying has been completed.


Mr. Terhune: My biggest concern is Iím the closest one to the subdivision and I get a lot of the run off from the subdivision. My biggest concern is they are still building over there and I think that is why Iím seeing an increase each time it does rain in run off. It only takes an inch of rainfall to fill this berth up that heís put back there and once it fills up it just flows over into my yard.


Jim Niemeyer: You never repaired the breach?


Mr. Terhune:No, none of that has been repaired. The last time I was here and spoke was when they did the approval for the drainage on that subdivision and I came up here and my concern then was where is this water going to go? Well, itís going to go to this retention pond at the other end over in Mansfield. My concern then was how are you going to get water to go uphill because it clearly looks to me like itís going uphill, but Iím no surveyor.The water comes out of this drainpipe and into my yard as opposed to going in it and they put this berm up there to try and hold it and it has washed away 3-4 times and Iíve got all that there in those notes.


Carl Conner: Jim, excuse me a minute, but a part of this study that BLA is doing are they not looking at the drainage plans to determine or not whether that contractor is built to specifications?


Jim Niemeyer:Yes


Mr. Terhune: I guess my biggest concern is they are going to build all these houses and nobody is going to be able to get in there and fix it once they do that. If they put another 250 homes back there which is what it is speced to do, you are going to have some tremendous run off there cause itís got no place to go now.


Carl Conner: When are we scheduled to get BLAís report?


Jim Niemeyer: I canít answer that at this moment, but we should be getting close to it.


Carl Conner: I would make a suggestion that you follow up with BLA for purposes of expediting that report and then Jim and this Board will have to follow up on that report, but now here again our attorney can correct me, but if he is not building according to specifications and he continues to build and makes it difficult for anyone to get in there to correct it or for himself to get in there to correct it, we still have a right to enforce what weíre requiring, right?


David Zengler: Correct, we may have to go to court to do it, butÖÖ


Carl Conner: And I think this Board is willing to do that, so I guess what Iím saying as one Board member is that we get the report. Weíll look at the report, weíre not concerned with him putting the other 250 homes up, from the stand point of that being an obstacle to us enforcing the plans for the drainage to be put in as approved by the Drainage Board and if we have to use our attorney to do that and go through the legal process. Then as far as Iím concerned, then so be it. But he is going to build it as he was required to build it.


Mr. Terhune: I knew you would work on this. The last time I was here it was a long meeting and I didnít get a chance to speak.


Carl Conner: I appreciate your comments and understand fully. But believe me weíre not going to let it drop just because heís built 250 homes in there. Weíre going to see to it that he does it right. Jim, could you go out and look at that situation?


Mr. Trehune:Heís been out there several times, he knows what Iím talking about. He knows there is an issue there. Thank you.




Don Williams:†† We have claims for $6,847.42.


Carl Conner: Move that we approve the claims as submitted in the amount of $6,847.42.


Phil Baxter:Iíll second that


Motion was made and seconded to pay claims.All members voted aye, carried 3-0.


Carl Conner made motion to adjourn, seconded by Phil Baxter. Meeting adjourned.