COMMISSIONERS MEETING ROOM
November 8, 2006
The Warrick County Drainage Board met in regular session with President Don Williams presiding, also in attendance were Carl Jay Conner, Secretary; Jim Niemeyer, Surveyor and David K. Zengler, Attorney for Board.
Minutes were recorded and transcribed by Cheryl D. Embry.
Audience attendance was Carol Metzger, Stu Phillips, Donna Potts and Mike Coin.
Don Williams:† Warrick County Drainage Board for November 8, 2006 now in session. We will dispense with the approval of the minutes, Item 1 for a period of two weeks. I donít guess we need a motion for that, just an announcement.
SANDALS SUBDIVISION SECTION B PHASE IV:
Don Williams:† Okay Drainage Plan approvals, Mr. Surveyor you want to take this.
Jim Niemeyer: The first one is Sandals Subdivision.
Don Williams: Where is this at?
Jim Niemeyer: itís Section B Phase IV, itís the farther most west development.
Don Williams:† ok, this is the ditch down here, right?
Bill Bivins:† Bill Bivins, engineer, the reason weíre back before you is because we changed some lot sizes in that section so that requires approval of drainage even though weíre not changing any of the drainage patterns. The subdivision was approved originally a couple three years ago and weíre not changing any drainage pattern or any flow or anything. We have gone out there and cleaned out the retention basin and reseeded the banks and have widened Tanglewood Ditch from the bridge down to Gardner-Webb and cleaned that all out.
Don Williams:† So youíve already got that taken care of then, okay. Mr. Surveyor, comments?
Jim Niemeyer: Everything is in order.
Don Williams:† Basinís designed for 50-year storm or more.
Bill Bivins:† Will it take a 100?
Bill Bivins: Weíve had our share of 100ís havenít we?
Carl Conner: I move that we approve the Sandals Subdivision Section B Phase IV drainage plan as submitted.
Don Williams:†† Iíll second that. Motion was made and carried 2-0.
CANEY CREEK ESTATES PHASE II:
Jim Niemeyer: Caney Creek isÖ.all the lots in there are 2 Ĺ acres or larger. I left the plat on my desk and Cheryl has gone down to get it.
Don Williams:† Then
Jim Niemeyer: I put in front of you a plat of
Don Williams:† Is this all draining to the pit there to the West?
Bill Bivins: Yes, all drainage to the pits there, thereís 36-acres of pits there and 40 acres of land. We ran it through some calculations as to what retention is required would raise that pit. 160th of an inch is the record capacity and so we felt like it was not necessary so we are requesting that no drainage retention areas be required because of the capacity we have in those pits.
Don Williams:† Thereís what 4 pits or three?
Bill Bivins: Thereís 4 pits and they are all tied together and go all the way down to Summer-Pecka Ditch. Itís that long, itís about ĺ of a mile down through there.
Don Williams:† Mr. Surveyor, your input?
Jim Niemeyer: I was there and checked it out with Bill. We prepared the aerials for it and it is all right.
Carl Conner:† I would move that we approve the Caney Creek Estates Phase II drainage plan as submitted.
Don Williams:† Second. Motion carries 2-0
Carl Conner:† Iím sorry that was the wrong one Paradise Gardens Phase I.
Don Williams:† †
Carl Conner:† Yes
CANEY CREEK ESTATES PHASE II:
Don Williams:† Now, weíll look at Caney Creek.
Jim Niemeyer:† She didnít find it, Iíll go down as I can pick it right out if I can be excused for about 2 minutes, do you have one, Bill?
Bill Bivins: No because I didnít think we would need it as they are all large lots over 3 acre lots.
Don Williams:† If youíre going to get it, go get it cause youíre wasting time.
Carl Conner: Oh, theyíre all over 3 acres.
Don Williams:† Well, if theyíre all over 3 it will pass the ordinance anyway. While heís out lets jump down to claims.
Don Williams:† Commissioner Conner have you had a chance to look them over?
Carl Conner: Yes, I have no questions. I would move that we approve the claims in the amount of $9,460.37.
Don Williams:† Iíll second that motion, all in favor. Motion carries 2-0.
Thank you for letting me take that out of order.
You probably ought to pause the tape as your going to be listening to a lot of dead space.† (It was discussed that sometimes when you turn off the tape recorder, that tape wonít resume taping as the machine is security blocked).
Don Williams:† Let the record show that the Surveyor has come back in without the plans.
Jim Niemeyer: I slipped up, I was looking at all these this morning and unless I have them mixed up with some of these others, which is possible.
Don Williams:† Well, itís pretty much straight forward if all of them are 3 acres or more.
Jim Niemeyer:† Here it is.
Bill Bivins:† The reason we have that cul-de-sac sticking out there is because thatís approximately 1000 feet from the previous one, so that is why we went ahead and constructed it like that.
Don Williams:† Thatís interesting so thatís youíre tie into the development next door is there ever becomes one orÖ..
Bill Bivins: Well, rather than putting in a temporary cul-de-sac, we just went ahead and put in a permanent one at the appropriate distance.
Don Williams:† The same property owner, Iím assuming?
Bill Bivins:† Yes
Don Williams:† Are there any questions?
Carl Conner:† I move that we approve the Caney Creek Estates Phase II Subdivision as presented.
Don Williams:† Iíll
second that motion. All in favor state by saying aye. Motion carried 2-0. We
have items for discussion, the first one is
I have one other item that we need to go, it slipped through the cracks
from September it is
Don Williams:† Okay, we can do that. Those are all large lots also, are they not?
Bill Bivins: Three lot subdivision 2 Ĺ acre minimum lot.
Don Williams:† Are they using a common drive or is this kind of a frontage road?
Bill Bivins: Yes, it would be a common drive.
Carl Conner: So this is just an addition there.
Don Williams:† This is just a re-plat?
Bill Bivins:† What happened was that his lot 2 was the whole area and so weíre re-plating basically lot 2 and making 3 lots out of it.
Carl Conner:† So itís just basically a revision to what was originally submitted?
Don Williams:† Right and theyíre all 2 Ĺ or greater also.
Stu Phillips: Iím Stu Phillips, I represent Lakeridge as
well as other lot owners in
Carl Conner:† So basically, what youíre saying is that you are requesting based upon that, that we deny the re-plat because of the fact that it would create more than one lot for building purposes.
Stu Phillips: Yes, according to the restrictions furtherÖthe lot owners that I represent do not want any additional homes on the lake. It was designed to be a large lot subdivision with privacy and that would go against the wishes of the lot owners.
David Zengler: Of course, this meeting would just be the drainage part of it.
Carl Conner: Correct, thatís why Iím looking to you as Iím looking to you for legal input.
David Zengler: Whether it could be subdivided, I think would technically probably be your job as Commissioners rather than as a Drainage Board obviously.
Carl Conner: But this would be, I guess my thought is, that with the re-plat of the drainage plan, even though that would have no impact upon the zoning changes or whatever. The plat itself would be a step in the right direction to getting that accomplished because they donít have this.
David Zengler: Thatís true, but Iím not so sureÖÖÖÖÖÖÖ
Carl Conner: I guess my question is to you, I assume Stu that those are in the covenants of the land owners from a legal perspective the County really doesnít have any input or say so in regards to the covenants between the developers and the land owners, correct?
David Zengler: Thatís basically correct, yeah. I guess my point is that Iím not so sure itís a drainage issue.
Stu Phillips: And I assumed that, I just want to raise the issue at every step.
Carl Conner:† But I think a change in the drainage plan is a step in the right direction, it would have to be done anyway to make these additional lots available to build on.
Don Williams:† Let me ask you this, Mr. Phillips, For this to happen as far as the approval of the other residences or some procedure or something like that they would have to go through?
Stu Phillips:† Itís been my understanding prior to this when you have a change in restrictions that you have to have all the property owners sign an agreement to that change. That has always been my understanding, that is what we have been told in the past.
Don Williams:† It may come down to a civil issues, I donít know. I know the Commissioners and this Drainage Board really donít have anyÖÖ
Carl Conner: Thatís what I was thinking
Stu Phillips: There are currently 17 lots in that subdivision and I represent 9 probably 10 lots.
Don Williams:† And the reason for this objection is because these lots are smaller orÖÖ
Stu Phillips:† Itís against the restrictions.
Don Williams:† Itís just against the written restrictions.
Stu Phillips: It adds more homes around this lake. Always in the past you had to have at least 100-foot frontage on the lot, that doesnít have 100 foot frontage.
Don Williams:† Let me ask Mr. Bivins a question, why did the developer work this out knowing these restrictions before even coming to this Board?
Bill Bivins: Itís my understanding that we way we read the restrictions that, that was not our interpretation of the restrictions. Iíll just say that. The way we interpret is that you hadÖif you created a lot that it had to be of a certain size to satisfy the planning commission. And again this hasÖ..in order for the planning commission to approve this there has to meet two criteria, (1) all the land owners in this subdivision have to sign off and agree or (2) you have to show a hardship as to why youíre wanting to create a smaller lot and thatís going to be on the responsibility of the developers to do that at the meeting.
Carl Conner:† Okay, so I assume they are going to go the hardship option?
Bill Bivins:† Yes, I think they told me they had seven or nine people in the community to sign off on it.
Stu Phillips:† I donít think so.
Bill Bivins: Thatís what they told me, Stu, I donít know I havenít seen the list, they are going to bring the list up tonight.
Carl Conner:† Now I assume itís going to come before Area Plan?
Bill Bivins:† Yes, tonight. You looking for a motion, Mr. President or do you have any questions?
Don Williams:†† †I donít really have any questions, Iím just kind of looking at this and Iím looking at the drawing, Mr. Bivins and the biggest part ofÖ..I guess you need to come up† here and point this out to me. I need to know the facts, is this the shore line of the lake?
Mr. Bivins pointed out the shore line of the lake on the drawing.
Don Williams:†† And the 2 Ĺ acres is this much of the lake involved in it?
Bill Bivins: Yes, and the Health Officer has signed off on it that there is enough room for the septic systems. The new rules are that you have to have 100-feet at the building line and what we have done is just moved the building line back to a point where they have 100-feet.
Don Williams:†† Okay, so all these lots go out into the lake.
Bill Bivins:† Yes, everyone except number 5 or 4.
Don Williams:† Number 4 maybe no it is number 5 is the only one.
Stu Phillips:† What about shared drive-ways, weíve never been allowed to have shared drive-ways before.
Bill Bivins: The County Engineer now is requesting that every
time we have lots like this on a
Mr. Conner asked how many lots there were and Mr. Williams answered 3, kinda oblong.
Don Williams:† I donít have any questions, I would like to see an agreement coming to this Board especially the Commissioner, I know what this Commissioner wants you to do is go back and get the understanding cleared up. Misunderstanding orÖapparently you understand it one way and you understand it the other way and if the County is not bound, either this Board or the Board of Commissioners to underwrite or go by any subdivision agreement, but itís unusual that we go against one, so I mean I donít have a problem with these drainage plans at all, but I would have a problem on the other side of it. Just to let you know what youíre looking at Mr. Bivins. Okay, I have no other questions, Commissioner Conner, do you have any other questions.
Carl Conner:† I have no other questions but I do have a comment. I really do not understand the legal ramifications of the request and approval or denial of that request, therefore, I would move that we table the request until it looks like thatís the November 22nd meeting until such time that I can get additional input from our attorney. In addition to that I sit on Area Plan, so Iíll be there tonight and Iím quite concerned about the fact that these people are usingÖthey have two choices and one choice is to deal with the people that are going to be their neighbors and they have made a decision not to deal with them but have made a decision to plead a hardship case and Iím just kind of hard pressed for hardship cases when it comes to builders and developers, Iím sorry. So I would make a motion that we table the request until the November 22 meeting.
Don Williams:† Iíll second that motion. Motion carried 2-0.
Stu Phillips:† Would this mean that it wonít come up at the Commissionerís meeting?
Carl Conner: No, I can assure you that if itís on the agenda tonight, itís not going to be discussed. And hopefully, you donít take this as any disrespect for youíreÖÖIím really at a loss from a legal standpoint and I want to get some time to talk to our Attorney and get some input and also Iím really interested in this hardship thing to go around the neighbors, cause personally I feel like thatÖ.
Bill Bivins:† Well, they did get some of the neighborsÖÖ.
Stu Phillips: They told some of the neighbors that I was the only one against it.
Bill Bivins: Oh, they may have done that Stu, I donít know but I know thatís not true myself.
Carl Conner:† See, and thatís what Iím saying, I just have a hard time with taking these kind of decisions out of the hands of the people that are going to be directlyÖyou know what Iím saying, but here again, Iím not saying I wonít approve this after I hear it but right now, Iím sorry I canít support it.
Don Williams:† Okay, next item Asher Estates, Mr. Surveyor, any discussion?
Jim Niemeyer:† This goes back to theÖÖÖÖ.
Carl Conner:† Did we take a vote on that, Don?
Don Williams:† Yes, we did.
Carl Conner: You know what I bet I know your name. †(laughter)
Don Williams:† Now, you do realize that this board is under no obligation to take any input from the public, Right?† (laughter) Okay, I donít want to hear anything from you just yet.
Jim Niemeyer: What weíve done thus far is weíve met with the Engineering firm that was employed by Ped-corp who built the apartments and we had a field meeting and basically reviewed the problems. It came down to basically this, that part of their drainage calculations were omitted, so the drainage plan that they submitted might not have been correct cause they didnít consider all of the area, which means that in their calculations they may have sized the piping too small. 18-inch pipes are in there now, 15 or 18 and they maybe have to go to 21-inch or larger maybe 24. Thatís without doing calculations.
Don Williams:† As far as Iím concerned, they can go 30.
Jim Niemeyer: It was re-affirmed that all the downspouts need to be inserted into the storm sewer which they were not. We also talked about cleaning the ditch to the east which weíre going to do under a legal drain program which weíre preparing to do and I will meet with David, Mr. Zengler to make sure we get all the steps correct. I will also meet with the manager there at Schnucks to tell them what our intent is.
Don Williams:† Iíd like to find out if that entire ditch is on Schnucks, then you need to make sure that Schnucks knows that they need to clean out both sides of that ditch.
Jim Niemeyer:† Iíll do that, cause I did speak to the manager of their properties.
Don Williams:† Because this is not a problem that I want to linger, I want it taken care of, as you know.
Jim Niemeyer:† So, thatís where that lays.
Don Williams:† Now if you will introduce yourself andÖÖ.
Jim Niemeyer:† Oh, excuse me we need to doÖ.they are going to provide us with a watershed study so that we can review that and I spoke with Bobby Howard this morning and he said they did call last week and they are supposed to call us back this week.
Don Williams:† Well, keep bird-dogging that, donít let it get dropped. If you would go ahead and introduce yourself for the record.
Donna Potts:† Donna
Potts 8286 N. Birch Drive,
Jim Niemeyer: No, the engineering company.
Donna Potts: Your company is?
Jim Niemeyer:† No no, their engineering firm.
Donna Potts: So is it myÖ.am I interpreting it correctly that legal drain will be the east ditch that youíre talking about that we looked at, but then Schnucks will go ahead and clean their part of it?
Jim Niemeyer:† Well, yeah, that will all be part of it and I willÖÖ
Donna Potts:† Okay, Schnucks is cleaning. I live there and they started at least 2-3 days ago and somebody is in there with aÖI canít tell you what the name was on the truck, but someone is in there and has cut down all kinds of brush and trees and limbs. I donít† know personally ifÖIím not educated enough to know if theyíve gone high enough on the apartment side, but they have started doing something and I didnít know if it was Schnucks or you doing that.
Jim Niemeyer:† No, its Schnucks, Iíll go by there this evening.
Donna Potts: Okay, I just thought that was encouraging information for us, but from the part that we looked at and talked to at the apartment with Ped-corp, the bigger problem was that east ditch that youíre talking about because that one is extremely small and grown over much worse than the Schnucks one but they all needed to be cleaned.
Don Williams:† And that one is going to take us a couple of months to get ready cause we have to make that a legal drain before we can go in and do that, or urban drain.
Donna Potts:† I understand that, I just didnít know if Schnucks was doing their part if the apartment and the other side, the Villaís people were capable of doing their part too. I donít know.
Don Williams:† Well, thatís the thing that weíre trying to determine is if part of that ditch is on Schnucks property or the entire ditch.
Donna Potts:† Yes, and thatís the one that runs east west, thereís another addition to that that runs north south, which it would be partÖÖÖÖÖ
Jim Niemeyer:† Thatís the really bad one.
Donna Potts: The bad one and thatís the one that it sounded like maybe the apartment did have part of that ditch and then that Villaís that David Fritz that we talked about from Jasper. They probably jointly own that. The apartment complex has run those downspouts, am I correct? Those downspouts were correct running into that ditch.
Jim Niemeyer:† No, they were supposed toÖÖÖÖ..
Donna Potts:† Even the ones on the side on that ditch, I thought theyÖ
Jim Niemeyer:† On your side they should Ö.
Donna Potts:† They should be underground, but the east ditch that comes out of our subdivision, see all their downspouts run into that one.
Jim Niemeyer:† I donít know about that one, but I know that building nine is because that was right there in that bowl shaped depression there.
Donna Potts:† I donít know enough, but even if they are permitted to go into that ditch they still didnít do anything in preparation for the extra drainage. Anyway I was glad to see that somebody was cleaning a ditch. I wondered about the Edwards one because I was out of town Friday, but I was told by several of our Homeowners Association board members that there was water pooling at 66 where the ditch goes to Libbert Road and there was definite water pooling there, I mean it was in my streets, but it did no come into any of our homes with sandbags that Iím aware of and I think that they would have told me because they knew I was coming up here. But, there is a problem there continued and the thing is that particular part, I think the developer was going to take care of themselves between that and that, where youíve already got a wonderfully cleaned out under that bridge rip rap and everything, but that one small stretch is going to be a majorÖ..
Jim Niemeyer:† That
needs to be cleaned from 66 North to the bridge and then from the west side of
the bridge all the way up, like up to
Donna Potts:† And I understood that the developer who is building on that side of 66 was going to be responsible for their part of the ditch and Iím just asking, it might need a temporary thing there just for the mere fact that the waterÖ.thatís the worst part right there. But thatís just home owners who go out while the rainís going on because you guys canít look while rains going on, thereís just to manyÖÖ.
Don Williams:† We do look when the rain is going on.
Donna Potts: I know you do and I appreciate it, but I mean thereís too many other issues going on every time it rains.
Carl Conner:† Jim, that Edwards Ditch, the County was working in that ditch about 2 weeks ago.
Jim Niemeyer:† Well, they did, they took care of the drainage just east of the bridge on both sides of the bridge and they cleaned and laid rip rap down.
Carl Conner: But, they didnít go from 66 north?
Jim Niemeyer:† No
Carl Conner:† Do you know why they didnít go from 66 North?
Jim Niemeyer: No, weíll need to go in there and clean that entire ditch cause itís really jammed up.
Carl Conner:† Iím sure the Highway Department can clean that section out from 66 North to the bridge, especially if theyíve already cleaned out underneath that bridge.
Jim Niemeyer:† Yeah, they did that.
Carl Conner:† So, why donít you call Sam Roach and ask him if he can clean that out. Now how far from the bridge west would we have to go to, in your mind, to resolve that issue in that ditch?
Jim Niemeyer:† I would take it all the way up to where it empties into Weinsheimer.
Carl Conner:† And how far is that from there, a mile or mile and a half?
Jim Niemeyer Oh, yeah.
Carl Conner:† May have to contract that portion out then.
Jim Niemeyer:† Well, its going to require grinding too.
Carl Conner:† And we donít have that ability in-house. But I would suggest that you call Sam at the Highway garage and have him get a crew out there at least to get to the bridge from 66 and then are we looking at going out for bids on the other mile and a half.
Jim Niemeyer:† Not immediately, but I have some others that weíre going to have a bid meeting tomorrow at 10:00 at Tanglewood to get that underway. I thought after I do that I would just drop down there and do theÖstart on the Edwards Ditch.
Carl Conner: I know the last time I was out there at
the bridge on
Jim Niemeyer:† We need to straighten out those banks and it probably wouldnít hurt toÖ.we should decrease the slope on those banks so that we can have additional volume and make a larger bottom.
Carl Conner: Itís very narrow through there.
Jim Niemeyer:† Yes and we can help that by creating additional volume. But there again you were in my office one day and I showed you a printout of all the ditch through from there through Pigeon Creek weíre looking at 61,000-feet to take care of all that. The worst part probably is going to be Weinsheimer and Pigeon Creek, thatís bad.
Don Williams:† Well, keep an eye on that and bring it to us when you have more information, I want to move on.
Jim Niemeyer:† Weíll just have to do it in stages.
Donna Potts: Any addition on the lot at 1st Christian Church?
Don Williams:† No, that has not been rezoned, it was denied at the last Commissioners meeting.
Donna Potts:† Well, I mean the First Christian Church, itís already there.
Carl Conner:† Sheís concerned about the drainage water off of the parking lot off of First Christian Church.
Jim Niemeyer: I went by there the other day and there is a small pit there, but Iím not sure if its adequate.
Carl Conner:† Probably need to check it.
Don Williams:† Asher Estates, Jim do you have something you want to say about this?
Jim Niemeyer:† Iím going to meet with Alan Holweger Friday morning to review that detention pond and the installation of a pipe drain which was not approved and I want to take him up to Englebrecht Subdivision because there is no response been made to that problem from those folks Ö..
Don Williams:† Youíre doing that when, Friday?
Carl Conner:† He put that pipe in there on his own?
Jim Niemeyer:† I think so, itís in backwards.
Carl Conner:† Backwards?
Jim Niemeyer: The opening is pointing in the wrong direction.
Don Williams:† Okay how about the Tanglewood Ditch?
Jim Niemeyer:† Tomorrow morning bid meeting at 10:00. I submitted requests to four contractors.
Carl Conner:† So, youíre having the bid opening tomorrow or just doing the field inspection?
Jim Niemeyer: Just the field inspection.
Don Williams:† Make sure that you that you allow all the work and what theyíre going to need to do work, whether itís got to be bushed or if itís got to be grinders, make sure they have grinders and if they donít have grinders then as far as Iím concerned we disqualify them from getting a bid because itís got to be done.
Now if I remember correctly, youíre going to start from the Far East
side of the subdivision and go west or from the west to the
Jim Niemeyer:† Yes and then attached to that program is the cleaning of a portion of Gardner-Webb Ditch. Itís in bad shape and itís caused flooding so that needs to be cleaned out.
Carl Conner:† Okay, good job, Jim.
Don Williams:† Okay, anything else, you have anything Mr. Attorney to bring before this Board? Any progress on the possible bonding to change our water flow over on the west side there.
David Zengler: I think the next step is not a legal step, I think itís an engineer step to and I think Jim and I discussed this, I think they have to have final plans and with estimates of funds needed.
Don Williams:† Where we at on that, Jim?
Jim Niemeyer:† I requested a report from BLA.
Don Williams:† Keep on top of that too because thatís something I think all 3 member of this board as well as the three Commissioners want to get that done.
Jim Niemeyer: In addition to creating a Legal Drain at Green Springs Valley project, in addition to creating a legal drain there also want to submit one for Colonial Hills there off ofÖ..west of Epworth Road, that has been an ongoing problem for years. That takes into consideration the Ivy Glen area and Fall Creek andÖÖÖ.
Jim Niemeyer:† Yeah
Don Williams:† If
the continued development of
Jim Niemeyer We should have an idea about that when we finish that study, remember, we started that all the surveying was done and all the control points were hit and all the elevations wereÖ.various pipes were taken so weíll know.
Don Williams:† When do you anticipate that study being done, do you have any idea?
Jim Niemeyer:† It ought to be close to it, the only thing they had to do yet was do the modeling.
Don Williams:† Do you have anything else, Mr. Attorney?
David Zengler: No, like I said Iím waiting on BLA.
Don Williams:† Commissioner Conner, do you have anything? Iíll entertain a motion to adjourn.
Carl Conner: So moved. Motion for adjournment passed 2-0.