FEBRUARY 14, 2007
COMMISSIONERS MEETING ROOM
107 W. Locust
The Warrick County Drainage Board met in regular session with President Phillip H. Baxter presiding, also in attendance were Carl Jay Conner, Vice-President; Don Williams, Secretary; Jim Niemeyer, Surveyor and David K. Zengler, Attorney for the Board.
Minutes were recorded and transcribed by Cheryl D. Embry.
Also in attendance at the meeting in the audience were Sue & Harold Harkins, Alan R. Bosma, Mark Barton, Henry Nodarse and Mike Phelps.
APPROVAL OF MINUTES:
Phil Baxter:† First on the agenda is the approval of minutes from January 24, 2007.
Don Williams:† Mr. President, I move that we approve the minutes from January 24, 2007 as presented.
Carl Conner:† Second.
Motion was made and seconded. Motion carried 3-0.
Jim Niemeyer: I think the first thing I would like to address is Julianne Estates.
Alan Bosma:† Iím Alan Bosma with Bosma Construction. Iím basically up here as we missed the cutoff on theÖ.to get in the paper so weíre going to come back on the 28th, but Morley wanted me to come up and present this to you so that if you had any questions between now and then we could get it resolved so that we could go ahead. In your package you have a publication notice which has been filed so that by the time the 28th is here that will be legal and then we have had all of our ordinances to vacate the utility easement and everybody has signed off on that. Then the other thing is that we wanted to change the drainage to a 21-foot off the back line.
Don Williams:† What is that now, Mr. Bosma?
Alan Bosma:† The drainage easement is actually in front of the utility easement.
Jim Niemeyer: Itís in the front of the house or the front part of the lot?
Alan Bosma:† No, itís in the back they put a utility easement in the back and everything is on the front. So all those letters are also in your package and signed off by Chandler Water, Sitcom, Vectren and AT & T.
Don Williams:† So youíre not looking for anything, youíre just giving us a heads-up?
Alan Bosma: Yes, Iím giving you heads up just to get your blessing today so that when I come in the 28th weíll justÖyou know..if you had any questions, Jim and I looked at it and he said that he didnít see any problem with anything moving it back.
Jim Niemeyer:† Also we had Morley Engineer Jordan Aigner was there too and we inspected that about 2 weeks ago and everything seems to be in order and Iíve wrote a letter addressed to the Drainage Board recommending that we approve this, so that everything will be ready to go on February 28, 2007.
Phil Baxter asked if any one else had any comments or questions?
Carl Conner:† Jim, you donít have any problems with these plans?
Jim Niemeyer:† No, sir.
Don Williams:† We canít do the vacation until the 28th. Thatís why I was wondering what this was that your asking us to approve it.
Carl Conner:† Itís just for more information than anything.
Mr. Bosma agreed.
This called for no action and Mr. Bosma will return on the 28th.
Don Williams:† I would ask the surveyor is thisÖ.what impact if any will this have on the drainage out there? Or the surrounding neighborhoods?
Jim Niemeyer:† None.
Alan Bosma:† On that print there, it goes down into that retention pond is where it goes down into.
The Board thanked Mr. Bosma and stated they would see him on the 28th.
Jim Niemeyer:†† Is Jim Farney coming?
Henry Nodarse answered from the audience that the engineer Mark Barton who will be discussing the Woodfield project called him and would be a few minutes late.
It was discussed that it would not have to be tabled just delayed until Mr. Barton arrives.
Jim Niemeyer:† The next item is under discussions and proposals is MS-4 and I donít see Mr. Larson here but someone else is here representing Commonwealth.
Don Williams:† Something
about 9 foot snow drifts in
Mike Phelps:† Mr.
Larson apologizes, he was not sure he should brave the weather. Iím Mike Phelps
with Commonwealth here in
Carl Conner:† At this point I have no additional questions, my concerns I talked about at the last meeting and Iíve talked to our attorney in regards to that and basically the issue for me was the structure of the compensation, a part of the contract and my understanding is that basically we have a 30-day out clause for no reason at all other than we have to send you written notification.
Mr. Phelps:† Right
Iím not too much in favor of the cap. I would prefer that we take some
risks for opportunity to possibly pick up some reduction on the down side,
therefore, my thought is that we sign a contract that is strictly on an hourly
basis. The contract then should basically state that where invoices would be
sent on a monthly basis to the
Mr. Phelps:† I believe that was the intention of the contract other than, I know the language estimated to be was a sticking point as opposed to saying ďnot to exceedĒ which I think Mr. Larson assumed when it was originally written but the cap is usually a security blanket that the owner likes to have to make sure that nothing happens above that. But to try to spit back what you said then, what you would like us to do isÖ..
Carl Conner: Well, excuse me one second, thatís just my thoughts, I donít know about the Boardís, so I guess probably what I need to do is probably make a motion that the compensation portion of the contract would be structured as such and then we would have to take a vote here, I would assume. So, what I just said if thatís okay Iíll put that in a form of a motion.
Phil Baxter: I have no problem with that. Go ahead, oh that is the motion?
Carl Conner: Yes, thatís the motion but basicallyÖ.hereís my motion is that we do not have a cap and you bill us on an hourly basis, that the monthly billings will be submitted to the County Surveyor for review and approval after that they will be sent here to this Board for review and approval in a public meeting and I feel comfortable with that because I feel like that there is the possibility that we may be able to pick up some cost reduction on the down side. Thatís my motion.
Phil Baxter:† We have a motion, do we have a second?
Don Williams:† Iíll second it but I have a couple of questions. Was that the intent to begin with that it would be hourly not to exceed?
Mr. Phelps: The intent was to be hourly not to exceed which would mean there is the potential for cost savings but no potential for overrun unless pre-approved, so we could end up invoicing less than the $145,000.00 shown in the contract, but we could not go more unless there was an amendment. So there would always be the potential for the cost savings and I guess my question back would be that if we remove the cap entirely, we still have a scope of services in there but how do we as a consultant make sure that we are serving you correctly, do we sit down on a monthly basis with the Surveyor and make sure that the scope for that monthÖÖI donít ever want to submit an invoice that does not get approved because we did something that wasnít allowed, soÖÖ
Carl Conner: And I think that you strike an issue when you say that what I think weíre trying to get and I donít mean this in any offensive way but I think there is a little more accountability and you are going to have to work withÖÖ
Mr. Phelps: That was understood but I wanted to make sure that you understand that we recognize that weíre held accountable and from our point of view we would like to make sure that some pre-approval happens so that when we submit an invoice it has already been acknowledged that that was the work and that was the direction that everyone wanted us to go into, so Iíve got no problems with this. The cap is basically a vehicle for the protection of the owner and of course if weíre looking at this on a monthly basisÖ..
Carl Conner:† And I said in my comment that I donít mind taking a little additional risk to possiblyÖto pick up something on the down side and also we can cap it. I mean if you get to the point where weíre not satisfied all we have to do is write you and letter and say heyÖ..
Mr. Phelps: Thatís correct, tell us to put on the brakes and weíll stop.
Don Williams:† So when you say about picking up on the down side, can you give me an example, Carl because Iím not sure I have any idea what youíre talking about.
Carl Conner:† Well, the way I perceive it is if we strictly do it on a hourly basis with us overseeing the monthly bill and them having to work with Jim, I feel like that we may be able to pick up some savings whereas with a cap I feel like not only in this situation but a number of situations we are basically saying to the provider (and he is shaking his head)
That hey youíve got the flexibility here to go to x number of dollars and Iím saying that I guess I donít want them to have that flexibility.
Mr. Phelps: And I appreciate that, if the number is set there is there is an encouragement to spend that amount of money. If weíre going to be looking at this on a monthly basis, pay as you go, then everyone is in agreement to how far to go.
Carl Conner: And Iím not saying Iím right, that is just my opinion and that is why I said I need to put it in a motion for the other two gentlemen here to vote on because their feelings may be totally different, I have no† idea.
Don Williams:† No, I like the thought of Ö.personally being hourly, you know that part of it. On the other hand I want to get everything done without exceeding anymore than we have to so IímÖÖat that point. I donít know how you feel about it Mr. Baxter, have you had any thoughts.
Phil Baxter: I think itís a good thought, I think I would agree with it. So we have a motion and a second, all in favor.
All members voted aye, motion passed 3-0.
Mr. Phelps: Then is the next step for us to submit a new contract to you removing the cap?
Carl Conner:†† Right and revise the compensation section, if you donít mind. Then I assume we would get our attorney to look at it once again.
Mr. Phelps:† Very good, thank you very much.
The Board thanked him also.
David Zengler: The last contract that I saw still had the
Phil Baxter: Jim, I see that Mr. Barton is now present if you would like to go back to Woodfield.
Mark Barton:† †Mark Barton, Bernardin and Lochmueller representing Greg Moore with Moore Development. On this particular sub in that area what had been designed was various swales to drain the backs of the yards of the residences and Greg Moore simply wants to eliminate a swale between two houses and replace it with a pipe to make it a smoother, flatter yard between the two houses.
Don Williams:† What size pipe and has it been checked to make sure itís big enough?
Mark Barton: Yes, Jim Farney has done all the calculations as he is the Engineer for Bernardin on the project and we provided that information to Jim.
Don Williams:† What was the size, Jim?
Mark Barton:† If I recall correctly, 12-inch.
Jim Niemeyer:† 12-inch pipe laid on a 6% slope can deliver more than 10 cubic feet per second which is approximately 4 times in 2.5 cubic feet per second, flow rate calculated above.
Mark Barton:† Itís going to far exceed what the swale would do itself.
Don Williams:† †I just wanted to make sure it didnít slow down the drainage any.
Phil Baxter:† Whatís your recommendation, Jim?
Jim Niemeyer: I recommend that you approve it.
Carl Conner:† I would move that we approve the change in the Woodfield Subdivision Section 11 as requested.
Don Williams:† Second
Motion was made and seconded to approve. Motion carried 3-0.
EPWORTH ROAD & I-164 PROJECT:
Jim Niemeyer Next is
Henry Nodarse:† My name is Henry Nodarse, Iím a Professional Engineer and a Certified Flood Plan Manager with Bernardin & Lochmueller Engineers. The County Surveyor asked me to appear in front of the Commissioners to really give you an update and basically answer questions you might have regarding the draft report that we made and submitted last month for the drainage area between Epworth, 164, Lincoln and basically the old Off the Wall Sports.
Carl Conner: Excuse me a minute, Do we have a copy of that, Jim?
Jim Niemeyer: Yeah, sure do.
Carl Conner:† Sorry, I must have overlooked it.
Jim Niemeyer:† What I would like for Mr. Nodarse to do is present the basic findings so that, I mean, Iím sure theyíre interested in everything, but I think really for time constraints, if we could hear what recommendations you did make?
Don Williams:† Did you forward us a copy of that, Jim?
Jim Niemeyer:† Yes, it was in different colored folders but I have two here if you want to see it.
Don Williams:† Oh, yes, I remember it.
Henry Nodarse: Iíll give you an update and a summary on the draft report that we prepared. The drainage report that we are preparing as I say is generally bounded byÖoh basically actually the Lloyd, the north and Epworth on the east and Landmark subdivision or the old Off the Wall Sports to the south and basically to the County line on the west. We did a study we going to draft mode right now, a draft study that discusses the drainage facilities in that area and identifies some particular problem areas. I think Iíll just talk about the other problem areas right now and see youíre opinions and see if there is anything else youíd like us to discuss in the report.
Mr. Nodarse had an overall aerial of the project and pointed
out various sites, such as the Lloyd, the
Carl Conner: Now youíre speaking of Ivy Glenn?
Mr. Nodarse: Yes, the major flooding of Ivy Glenn. Weíve done some computer modeling some calcs where all of them are operating at the same time, that wasnít done on any of these subdivisions. This was basically built a long time ago itís an old borrow pit, itís very large, much bigger than this subdivision needs and that was done about 1990 and this was built in 1999 or 2000, this was built in 2005 but it just wasnít correlated, the three werenít correlated as to how they operate independently. I mean, how they operate inter-connected. The water goes from here to here, here to here and then to Howard Ditch. So thatís the problemÖÖ..
Don Williams:† Excuse me, does that get to Howard Ditch out of that last one via pipe?
Mr. Nodarse: Yes, there is a pipe that goes from this last pond to Howard Ditch and there is a flap gate on that pipe, now a flap gate is great but you donít want a lot of water to come back into the pond system, but it also as water fills up in Howard Ditch, the water in the pond canít go out until it gets high enough, so when the flap gateÖÖ.it will prevent water from going back into the pond but if water is in the ditch, the water is not going to go out, so the water has to start to rise up here and rise up here so the whole system is all connected. That is a problem area that we identified and weíve given a recommendation. There is a minor problem here at the intersection of Lincoln and Epworth there is an existing pipe that comes across the road from Thornbrook Subdivision and the water goes under the road and it just goesÖ.shoots out into a ditch but the water hits the other side of the ditch and over time the water that shoots out of this pipe from Thornbrook is going to shoot across the ditch and hit the backside of the ditch and start eating away at that back side of the ditch and possibly at some point make that back side of the ditch fail and water will start going into the Mansfield Subdivision. So weíve made a minor recommendation there to just turn the pipe a little bit so you get to bore it down the ditch as opposed to going across the ditch. This is a minor thing but I think there were some problems in this area before with another pipe and they had to do the same thing, turn the outlet of the pipe.
The fifth area that we looked at is the Howard Ditch itself and how drainage in the whole area could be improved a bit by reversing the flow, from this point and this study it has Stahl Road, itís not very easy to reverse the flow from Stahl Road, I mean itís easy physically, it might be difficult financially, but physically we can reverse the flow from Stahl Road you know to the ditch goes down sorry Howard Ditch goes under 164 and about where it goes into Colonial Hills subdivision it can beÖ.we can set a pipe from here down to the river about a mile down toward Willow Pond Ditch or Ohio River.
So those are the five areas weíve identified, if thereís other areas that the County has identified we could look at those also, but that is pretty much the summary of the draft drainage. If you are happy with the five areas weíve identified then weíll just continue on completing the report.
Jim Niemeyer:† When you say completing the report is that going to be attached to the larger one or does that just pertain to what youíve done here?
Mr. Nodarse: What weíve done here, the second thing Iíll be discussingÖ..as far as Howard Ditch we have an overall project of Howard Ditch itself when we did a feasibility study in 2002 that did identifyÖyou know..from Stahl Road South to Colonial Hills, but they can be reversed and sent down the river, we also thought that recently you know no we can probably extend that out to Oak Grove by reversing that flow there also. But, thatís a different project and as we go further into possible construction project that actually is a major project to reverse the flow. We thought and sent a letter that it might be wise to actually prepare a preliminary engineering report on that project which you might use to get funding and to getÖto identify the final construction design perimeters so once the Corp of Engineers report is done you can identify the actual engineering required to make the construction drawings so, to go further into Howard Williams Ditch actually get this implemented ok like these five things you donít need a study for all of them except for Howard Williams Ditch. Itís such a major project that to implement Howard Williams Ditch reversal weíre recommending to you know do a preliminary hearing report like itís hard cost good preliminary cost engineering some preliminary engineering itself it identifies specific perimeters and it identifies the (inaudible)
To prepare the engineering drawings for the construction and that document itself can be submitted to various agencies to get funding and once that report is done then you know whoever designs the actual construction documents can look at the preliminary engineering report and say okay we know exactly what has to be done here, you can set an engineering fee of that particular work. So, thatís the letter we drew up last month and if you want to proceed we would be happy to present a proposal to do a preliminary engineering report and should the Board review the preliminary engineering report and want to proceed further we would give you a proposal with construction engineering documents. So thatís just the basic summary of Howard Williams Ditch.
Don Williams:† Mr. Nodarse, if we were to and thatís what weíve been talking about doing is reversing Howard Williams for some time, if that was reversed and run directly to the river, would that in fact alleviate all the flooding in that area.
Mr. Nodarse:† Which area?
Don Williams:† This area.
Mr. Nodarse:† It would certainly help, I mean there would be no flooding because of Howard Williams Ditch, I mean there would be no flooding because of Howard Williams Ditch right nowÖ..
Don Williams:† If we took care of all five of these issues, would that alleviate the flooding in that area?
Mr. Nodarse: Well, I canít say for a 500 year storm, but I mean yeahÖ.
Don Williams:† Iím not talking about a 500 year storm. We have several 100 year storms back to back every once in a while seems like, butÖ.
Mr. Nodarse: Yeah, we can plan it for a 100 year storm because one of the problems is that as I was talking about Howard Williams Ditch these three ponds would work much better if there was no water in Howard Williams Ditch to start with because usually there is always water in Howard Williams Ditch even when its not raining. When it rains the ditch starts filling up because a lot of it is back water you know so if we can get the water out of Howard Williams Ditch then at least when these ponds are operating there is not that much water in Howard Williams Ditch for it to get out, so maybe you wonít need 4-5 feet of water in this pond to get it out because there is 3-feet of water in the ditch. If there is on water in the ditch you might just need one or two feet in this water in this pond to get it out. So that would be a good thing to do.
Don Williams:† Earlier you talked about the flap gate going into Howard Williams Ditch, am I understanding right that probably ought to not be there?
Mr. Nodarse:† It may not be needed, the reason itís there now is because Howard Williams Ditch always has water in it and the flap is there so water in Howard Williams Ditch at least stays in Howard Williams Ditch it doesnít go back into this pond. It isnít hurting anything because for the water in the pond to get out and you actually have to move that flap gate, it doesnít take much water pressure to open up that gate. Itís like a trash can lid, its round and very thin and sealed so you canít get water this way but if waterís on this side it can push out and the thing is the water on this side that you want to get out has to be a little higher than the water on the opposite side. So if there was no water in Howard Williams Ditch you just need a little water in the pond, if there is 3-feet of water in the ditch then you need a little more than 3-feet of water in the pond. So all Iím really asking of the Board now is to accept maybe a proposal from our firm for Howard Williams Ditch reversal, not really asking that now just an update and answering questions and giving a summary.
Don Williams:† †Well, I can only speak for myself but I would like to see us go to the river with Howard Williams, but I want to peruse your report a little more in depth.
Phil Baxter:† Have you involved any with Pigeon Creek?
Mr. Nodarse: I do some projects along Pigeon Creek, what were you talking about?
Phil Baxter:† All this area here goes to Pigeon, right?
Mr. Nodarse:† Yeah
Phil Baxter:† Okay, is there a problem there that we can take care of, which I know there is a lot of problems there on Pigeon Creek that would do the same thing that your talking and cover a larger area at the same time?
Mr. Nodarse: Well, the problem is the backwater from Pigeon
Creek as you get further from
Phil Baxter:† Correct me if Iím wrong but the times, the problems we had this past year with the flooding, it wasnít backwater at all it was flood. It was headwater.
Mr. Nodarse: Thatís correct and that was the problem with the 3 ponds not working together.
Phil Baxter:† I donít remember really having a problem with backwater in this area here.
Mr. Nodarse:†† Right no you donít have too much problem with backwater in this area.
Phil Baxter:† So the headwater is what we need to get rid of? Correct?
Mr. Nodarse: Yes, headwaters are down in this section.
Phil Baxter: Yes well in most sections actually.
Mr. Nodarse:† Well unless you get near Pigeon Creek.
Phil Baxter:† Yes, well I agree with that but thatís always been the problem.
Mr. Nodarse: You can make repairs to a lot of areas if the root problem is not the Pigeon Creek backwater.
Don Williams:† You mentioned that there are agencies for funding, are we talking about Army Corp. perhaps?
Mr. Nodarse:† Well Army Corps will not fund, we actually contacted them on this particular problem.
Don Williams:† The Army Corps of Engineers... and I was talking to Mr. Lochmueller and he may have been the one to talk to them, but I guess many years ago Army Corps of Engineers wanted to do this very thing, they wanted to take Howard Williams all the way to the river but family on the other side of where 66 is now, I guess fought them tooth and nail and they finally just threw in the towel and said heck with it and they are no longer interested in participating, is that what you are saying?
Mr. Nodarse: We actually spoke with the chief commander of the Louisville District which takes care of this area and he said directly that( this was inaudible, something about funding, but could not hear it)
Don Williams: He doesnít consider this an issue for them?
Mr. Nodarse: Apparently not, I mean we still would use the preliminary report and maybe in a year or so whenever it is, you can still submit and ask for it, ask for funding. But we called them a month ago and you know had an informal discussion and was fortunate to talk to the commander.
Phil Baxter:† Do you have any questions or comments, Carl?
Carl Conner:† Not at this time.
Don Williams:† I appreciate your input very much. Thank you
Jim Niemeyer: Could I ask one question? Henry, if in the report that we have you mentioned going under I-164 from Ivy Glenn, would that be part of the reversal project?
Mr. Nodarse: It didnít have to be, one of the solutions is we need another release out of this pond here, you can release it this way or you can possibly get it down to here. There are drainage easements on the backside of Fall Creek Subdivision and if you can get a drainage easement on the back side of the 164 Commercial Park Subdivision if it ever happens, you would have a corridor to bring a release pipe or a release ditch from this pond down to here cause right now there is really noÖI mean one of the basic problems here is that there is no overflow for this pond other than the streets of Ivy Glenn. This is a primary pipe here, which most of the water comes out of this pipe here and it was not designed as an overflow pipe although it is 2-3 feet higher. The problem is that water rises in this pond here this pipe and the lowest catch basin here and the end of the bottom of this pipe are about the same elevation really so as water rises up, it may be trickling out of here and also trickling out of the catch basin so that is the problem, if this was a foot lower you might be in better shape, but this pipe was never designed to Ö.both these pipes were designed to handle the highway drainage.
Jim Niemeyer: In your report you mentioned five specific areas that improvements need to be made and what we could do is prepare a summary for the Drainage Board to look at those along with some estimated costs and who would be responsible for doing the work. What prompts me to do this cause last week I took an engineer with me and we walked the whole entire Howard Williams Ditch and the problem is along there is just not hardly enough room to walk on much less get an excavator in there to clean out the ditch. While looking at the ditch I found several falls in the ditch where dirt and mud came off the sidewalls and those are presenting problems to flow, the water has to get around them and it creates a drag, so for the last 3000 feet we may be able to go in there and just sort of for lack of a better term spruce it up and clean it up. But the big push I see right now from Outer Lincoln up to the interstate because the ditches are really slumped and really falling. Itís going to be difficult to get in there but it can be done. We need to clean that culvert out on I-164 as they have a lot of silt in them. I found two 8-foot culverts, one has a hugeÖÖ..Iíll take care of that and Iíll present this to the Drainage Board.
Don Williams:† Iím sorry we need to move on.
Mr. Nodarse:† We can make a summary sheet.
Phil Baxter: Thank you, Henry.
YOUTH SPORT COMPLEX:
There was discussion on what this was since there was no one to represent it
Carl Conner:† Iím just going to make a motion that we remove it and if they want to reschedule then they need to call and get it back on the agenda.
Don Williams:† Iíll second that motion.
Motion was made and seconded. Motion carried 3-0.
Phil Baxter:† We have claims in the amount of $18,720.52.
Don Williams:† I would move that we pay the claims.
Carl Conner:† Second
Motion was made and seconded, motion carried 3-0.
Phil Baxter:† Is there anything else to come before this meeting?
Don Williams: †Motion to adjourn
Second by Carl Conner. Motion carried 3-0.