APRIL 11, 2007
The Warrick County Drainage board met in regular session with President Phillip H. Baxter presiding, also in attendance were Carl Jay Conner, Vice-President; Don Williams, Secretary; Sean M. Owens, Deputy Surveyor and David K. Zengler, Attorney for the Board.
Minutes were recorded and transcribed by Cheryl D. Embry.
Those present in the audience were Kurt Stahl, David Reynolds, Carl Beckerle, John N. Berning, Sr., Mark O. Bohnert, Charles Lewis, Tona Joy, Ron Lankford, Larry Bisttep, Manny Rydholm, Katie Phelps and Jerry Titzer.
APPROVAL OF MINUTES:
Phil Baxter:† The first thing on the agenda is the approval of minutes for March 28, 2007.
Don Williams:† Mr. President, I would move that we approve the minutes of March 28, 2007 as presented.
Phil Baxter:† We have a motion to approve.
Carl Conner:† Second
Motion was made and seconded to approve minutes. Motion carried 3-0.
Bill Bivins:† Bill Bivins, Engineer for Gourley Estates, as you know Mrs. Gourley passed away unexpectedly and we would like to continue this until the next meeting.
Don Williams:† †Move to table for two weeks.
Bill Bivins:† Iím sorry, lets go ahead and make a full month, the second Wednesday of May.
Don Williams:† That would be May 9, 2007. I would move that we table drainage plans for Gourley Estates until May 9, 2007.
Carl Conner:† Second
Motion was made and seconded to table. Motion carried 3-0.
Carl Conner:†† Bill,
Iíve got one quick question, is this related to the proposal on
Mr. Bivins: Yes, sir.
Carl Conner:† The only reason I asked is because Mrs. Gourley and I had had some discussions about that some time ago and I didnít know if we were looking at the same project or not.
Bill Bivins: Yes, the plat actually dedicates a 40-foot right of way for you.
Sean Owen stated that Mr. Meadors called and requested that it be tabled until he calls and requests that it be removed until further notice.
Don Williams:† I move that we remove by request item one Mr. George Meador until he requests to be put on the agenda again.
Carl Conner:† Second
Motion was made and seconded. Motion passed 3-0.
Phil Baxter:† Sherri, did you want to follow up on something?
Sherri Rector:†† I wanted to, in case there is someone here for Gourley Estates for the rest of the meetings, they are going to request that the Street plans be continued for a month the meeting that is supposed to be at 4:00 and it will also be continued tonight at the Planning Commission meeting until the May 9, 2007 meeting.
The Board thanked her for the information.
Phil Baxter:† Did everyone understand that was here for Gourley? For this meeting and the following meetings Gourley Estates has been cancelled until May 9, 2007. This included street plans etc.
Sean Owen:† The next item is Kurt Stahl to discuss the Boesche Ditch.
Kurt Stahl: My name is Kurt Stahl and I apologize for being
the first person on complaints. It is actually more of a request, the property
that Iím going to speak to you about is a piece of property that is owned by
Marleen Bellemy and is also Marleen Stahl, it has been in Lloyd Stahlís family
for years. I now farm it and I brought photoís for the Board. The property is
adjacent to the asphalt company down on SR 62 and
Carl Conner:† Let me see if I understand the situation here, there is a difference of opinion in regards to whether or not it is a legal drain and what you have found that a potential buyer discovered or at least felt that it was a legal drain and you found that to be an obstacle to the sale of that property?
Mr. Stahl:† Right
Carl Conner:† So if it is a legal drain, you are basically asking us to vacate that?
Mr. Stahl:† Yes, what I am saying in that in checking with Sean and Jim on that, they say well thatís listed as a legal drain and in checking the history with Lloyd and his family at what was done there and also the contract in 1984 happened to by my uncle at that time who was in business and he actually had to cut a check because,,,Öto come over and do a little work on that side because it wasnítÖ.what I am saying is that somehow during the process, it wasÖbecause of the way it lines up, was listed as part of that Boseche Ditch in a legal drain when in essence it wasnít and in talking with Sean and Jim, they understood what we were talking about but they couldnít do anything, it has to be brought to the Drainage Board to ask them toÖso your more than welcome to ask Sean his opinion.
Carl Conner:† Well, I guess for my own personal satisfaction I would have to ask our attorney, what steps would we have to take if any from a legal perspective to basically vacate that legal drain if we so desire to do so?
David Zengler:† Well, basically it is somewhat the same procedure as when you start or institute a legal drain, I mean you have toÖ.thereís petitions, you have to give notice to the surrounding people, you have a hearing.
Carl Conner:† A little more involved then?
Mr. Stahl:† But in this case the only piece of property and I will need Sean to back me upon thisÖthat it affects, it doesnít go all the way to the end, it only affects the Stahl property, it is just right in the middle, it has noÖit doesnít take any water from anywhere else.
Sean Owen:† They only
want to vacate the portion south of
Mr. Stahl:† Correct, that is the part that was mislabled.
Mr. Zengler: I think the procedure would still be the same, it may not just be real difficult to do, but it stillÖ..you still have to go through a legal procedure of notification and have a hearing in front of this Board and so on.
Carl Conner:† And then does it not have to be recommended by this Board to the County Commissionerís and then do the Commissionerís not have the final action?
Mr. Zengler: No, I think itís just vacated by this Board.
Mr. Stahl: So, just so I understand, to do so we have them come back as they are the only people it affects so howÖ.what is the procedure?
Mr. Zengler:† Well, itís a public hearing I guess, it has to be advertised.
Mr. Stahl:† Even though they are the onlyÖ..like I understand if someone is filing for zoning we do everyone around but since the ditch only affects their piece of †property who else do we notify? That would be my question?
Mr. Zengler:† Probably them, but you still do the publication too, to meet the requirement.
Mr. Stahl:† So to meet the requirements, I have to file some sort of petition through you and we notify them, which I am here with just because I am the person talking.
Carl Conner: Then it will be on the agenda, what do we have to give 30 days?
Mr. Zengler:† I think itís 30 days but Iíll have to check.
Mr. Stahl:† Okay, so just to understand, I file a petition with them to come back?
Carl Conner:† Well, I assume that is the process, but first this Boardís going to have to make a decision of whether or not they want to initiate us vacating so you can have that removed. Thatís all the questionís I have, Phil.
Mr. Zengler:† I did look up theÖ..you might be interested in theÖ.letís see if I can find the criteria† (paging through a book)††† ďA regulated drain should be vacated when the drain does not perform the function for which it was designed and constructed or has become inadequate to properly drain all the affected land under current conditions, the expense of reconstruction outweighs the benefits of reconstruction and the vacation will not be detrimental to the public welfareĒ† which I think could be easily met with that criteria.
Mr. Stahl:† They were even unaware of whenÖ.howÖwhenever the title of public drain got slapped on it, because literally they put it there and with a jog there.
Carl Conner:† Iíll make a motion that we initiate the process of purposes of vacating the legal drain as requested by the Stahlís.
Phil Baxter:† We have a motion, do we have a second? Have a second?
Don Williams:† I want to look at it before I make a motion.
Phil Baxter:† Iíll second it, all in favor?
Carl and Phil voted aye, Don Williams abstained from voting.
Motion passed 2-0† 1 abstention.
Carl Conner:† We will do whatever we need to do and I assume it will be back on the agenda next month, then.
Mr. Zengler:† Yes, probably the second meeting in May instead of the first one.
Weíll notify you when.
Mr. Stahl:† Okay, but just for my ignorance I start the petition with them?
Mr. Zengler:† Yes.
GOURLEY PLACE-CITIZENS COMPLAINT:
Sean Owen:† Next is
the Citizens complaints for
Mark Bohnert:† Iím
Mark Bohnert of
Don Williams:† We got this notice and it says complaint, whoever called refused to give what the complaint was so of course I havenít looked at it, there was no explanation given.
Mr. Bohnert:† I just moved in a year ago, Iím new to this but I can see everybodyís problems and I am on the corner there myself so I figured I would come up and say something.
Is that at
Phil Baxter:† Is this on top of the hill?
Mr. Bohnert:† No, this
is right down in the valley. I live on top of the hill and this is right down
in the valley there. Pamela goes straight in to
Phil Baxter:† What we can do if itís all right with the other two Commissionerís we can ask our Engineer to go out there and ask our Surveyor Department to go out and look at it because none of us are allÖ.we are all ignorant to the fact, I think?
Carl Conner:† Yeah, I know where itís located, in fact I was by there today and wish I had known there was a problem, I would have stopped.
Mr. Bohnert:† Well, the mud on the road is one indication, butÖ.
Carl Conner:† What Phil is saying would be the start for us that we would have to go out and take a look at it. I will also go out and take a look at it and maybe have a report in 4 weeks, Phil?
Ron Lankford:† My name
is Ron Lankford I live at the corner of Pamela and
Carl Conner:† Does that culvert run parallel to Pamela?
Mr. Lankford: It runs under Pamela.† So if
Carl Conner:† So the drainage is actually under the street, then? Okay.
Mr. Lankford:† Yes, itís not along the side and once it builds up, it spills up over the street and looks like a river down through there.
Don Williams:† And the culvert goes actually under the street of where it is collapsed is under the street? Now when that first happened, if the highway department was notified it would probably already be fixed.
Mr. Lankford:† Well, Iím sorry but your peopleÖ..
A lady in the audience stated she had sent certified letters
and everything and sent it to the
Mr. Lankford:† We see the trucks pull up, the people look and go throughÖ.but then we never get any response back from them, no promises orÖ.
Don Williams:† What was your address Mr. Lankford?
Charlie Lewis: Iím Charlie Lewis 2111 Union Drive, Iím right
on the corner of Pamela and
Carl Conner:† Can we keep those pictures? I assume you brought them for us, did you not?
Mr. Lewis:† Yes, sir.
Don Williams:† How long has this been going on Mr. Lewis, about 5-6 years?
Mr. Lewis:† Yes, about 5-6 years and every year it gets higher, it will be up in our footer before long. It is up to her flower beds and you can see right there how much it covers and last rain was higher than that. But Iíve got a sink hole in the yard again, 3 times Iíve dug it up myself because they wonít fix it and I dig down to the top of the sewer pour concrete over it and get dirt and fill it back up.
Don Williams:† †Now is it a sewer that is broken in or is itÖ..
Mr. Lewis:† Itís a storm sewer. We have got water shooting up through the street cause it canít get anywhere, so itís hollow underneath that street also. Itís really bad, you can there where it goes in a 30-inch storm sewer that is draining that whole valley all the way over to Fuquay and then look at the other end (pictures) of that sewer?
Don Williams:† †Is this your house in this picture here, sir?
Mr. .Lewis:† No, thatís Ronís house. That new subdivisionís going right behind that house.
Don Williams:† Is that taken from your yard, looking at it?††††† (picture)
Mr. Lewis:† Yes
Carl Conner:† Is this the only area that you all know of within the subdivision that there is a drainage problem?
Mr. Lewis:† Itís the only one that we know of, butÖÖÖit all stops at his house.
Carl Conner:† I know he has problems because he just discussed them with me out in the hallway, but I was just wondering if there was any other areas.
Mr. Lewis:† I donít know anybody over the hill. See everything runs in together there even through the yards it finally joins in one area. But itís really bad it gets worse every time it rains.
Phil Baxter:† Weíll get people out there.
Mr. Lewis:† Well. Theyíve been out there and Iíve talked to them and they say well thereís nothing we can do about it, weíre broke. Thatís what the one guy told me. I mean we have complained and complained about this and had people out there. This year I have another sink hole and I have to reseed every year. Sunday morning we got up and thereís 2 inches of mud in the street again.
Phil Baxter: Iím sure anyone sitting here hasnít heard of this situation before, let me rephrase that the three of us sitting here havenít heard it before. I know I havenít but someone will be out there to see what the problem is.
Like I said the only situation I was aware of Phil was the situation of
the gentleman sitting over here that lives at the corner of
Don Williams:† I
think what we need to do is have our
Carl Conner: There is one thing that I would like to say, is that it looks like to me that you just do not have isolated area or areas and itís probably going to take in my opinion a comprehensive plan to resolve all these drainage issues. And thatís what we want to do, we just donít want to go in and do a band-aid type of thing we want to get it corrected and get it corrected right in the entire thing.
Mr. Lewis:† Well itís got to be before somebody goes through my yard and it caves in and they get hurt. Somebody has to be responsible for it.
Carl Conner:† I understand.
Mr. Lewis:† Iíve done went through one hold myself, so itís that easy. But the streets are getting just as bad, say for instance a school bus or something, you just never know.
Carl Conner:†† Thatís true and especially if itís washing out underneath the surface, because just like you said, you have been filling in dirt and concrete and the hole keeps reappearing, so there is nothing solid there.
John Berning:† Hello, my name is John Berning, I live down the street up on a hill. I have stood out there, right by Charlieís house on the north side of it, the side that is caving in, walked to the next house and the gentleman there and I could stand out on top of the slabs and bounce up and down and make water come out of it. You did send some people out one day, they were in a dump truck, this was probably 6 years ago or 5 and a pick-up truck and one gentleman crawled in and started cleaning brush out and he backed out of it and said it was too dangerous to be in as it was starting to crack and fall. So he made some notes so somewhere there should be some notes that is on record of this back that many years ago. But it is a sad problem that it runs on an angle and you will have to go in and rip up part of the street when you come down and put a very substantial size drain in and turn and go down to the ditch to the north that hooks up with the other ditch that runs west. Little kids could fall in it because there are quite a few kids there in the neighborhood that play and they like to come down and play when the water is running hard and it is bad, it would suck a kid in and possibly even an adult. Especially if they get over there on the deep side and Iíve seen it get down into other peoples yards and almost get into their garages that live about 3-4 house from there. So youíve got an area that runs downhill and a ditch that does fill up because it has corresponding water coming from the south from another road and they dump into the ditch that the other one runs into and they run parallel to each other and makes a bend. But this ditch is Ösomethings wrong with it and itís not big enough to carry the flow of water since its coming out of this other subdivision. So therefore if somebody is going to do some more work back behind there, you need to get in there and get a much bigger engineer pipe in there and maybe cut down to where the end of the block where this other guy has problems too and free the water up so it will go through under the road like they started to. Thatís about all Iíve got to say.
Carl Beckerle:† My
name is Carl Beckerle,
Don Williams:† Mr. Beckerle give me your phone number cause I am planning and it may be a week or so before I can get out there.
Mr. Beckerle:† 853-8734
Don Williams:† And youíre in agreement that it seems like everything was ok until about 5-6 years ago?
Mr. Beckerle: Well for my house until the last couple of
years, but Unionís got a big dip there and Iím saying byÖyou know Gourleyís
woods, if they build that subdivision back there most of that water from that subdivision
will run through this same pipe. I also followed that ditch and I didnít know
that Castle Hills their street I guess
Phil Baxter:†† Okay, weíll be looking at it. Thank you.†† (Mr. Beckerle also thanked the Board.)
Jerry Titzer:† Good
afternoon, ladies and gentleman. My name is Jerry Titzer, I live at
The Board thanked him also.
David Reynolds:† Good
Afternoon, Iím David Reynolds, I live at
Carl Conner:† How long is that fence there? It looks like thereís a fence thatís on the other side of the manhole.
(someone in the audience, probably Mr. Reynolds)† Apparently thereís two fences, one is torn down that was a utility access right behind my property and part of the fence that is more on the Gourley property is pretty much gone. I prop it up every time I can as the posts are rotting out.
Phil Baxter:† We will have people out there looking at it and I will probably be out there tomorrow morning about 8:00 or so. I would like to see whatís going on and see what we can do for you.
Carl Conner:† I initially donít think that they probablyÖPhil need to be there, I think basically what we need to do is get people from Surveyorís Office and the County Engineer probably get somebody from the County Highway Garage because IÖ.this is not in my opinion going to be something folks that weíre going to be able to fix overnight and we donít want to fix it overnight. Like I said I think itís going to take a comprehensive plan to do this and do it right, thatís not to say that we will not address the issue immediately, but we have to start somewhere and weíve got to get the professionals out there to tell us where exactly for example what size pipes do we need on the north side of telephone road, what are we going to do at the intersection of Union and Pamela because we have done work in that area last year up farther and I think itís make a major improvement to drainage in a portion of that subdivision. What I would suggest and we will keep you all informed, but what I would suggest and weíve had this happen all the time is that you all appoint someone to represent your group and you have them here at these drainage board meetings and ask for updates if you donít see anything going on out there and that way you hold us accountable and that keeps us on a timely schedule. We meet the 2nd and 4th Wednesdays every month at 3:00 right here.
Don Williams:† I would like to say something to the folks that are out there. When you have a complaint like this, donít hesitate to give us a location and nature of the complaint because last week I had a fairly lax week and I could have been out there, this week unfortunately I had no time at all to see much of anything. So donít hesitate to give us the nature of your complaints cause you may not get it done through the highway department but we usually take care of issues.
Some one in the audience asked a question, but it was inaudible.
Don Williams:† Well,
I think the Surveyor can handle drainage if itís a drainage problem, Mr. Jim
Niemeyer and the three of us are the drainage board members and weíre also the
Some of the members of the audience members were asking questions and it was something about an easement and that is why the ditch was not dug out.
Don Williams:† We donít necessarily have to have an easement if the property owners will give us a right of entry. If itís being affected by like the crushed culvert in the road, you know normally we donít go onto private property, but if itís beingÖ.the cause is a road problem or a road side ditch problem or something like that or even a legal drain problem then we certainly can take care of that problem.
A lady in the audience stated that she has complained longer than that subdivision is old. She stated she guess she didnít complain to the right person because everytime the county garage would come out they would say there was nothing they could d about it.
She stated other things but was inaudible.
Don Williams:† They mainly take care of the road and any little roadside ditches. Drainage problems you would normally contact the surveyor, legal drains and natural drains with intentional obstructions. But usually road and road side ditches the complaint should go to the highway engineer slant highway department.
There was a question about the sink holes in yards.
Don Williams:† Well, that is an issue that I canít give an answer to because that is private property and we have very limitedÖ..that is why we need to get this investigated and get it taken care of as quickly as possible. Weíre not planning on this problem being there next year. I can tell you that or at least this is one commissioner not planning on it.
The people in the audience were talking about the new subdivision.
Don Williams:† Youíre not getting any of this are you, Cheryl?† Weíre not getting any of your conversation we should have had you come to the mike. But anyway you know where weíre headed with it and we will be out there sometime probably next week and if any of you would like to let me know when your going to be around, I would be glad to get with 2-3 of you, mine would probably be when you get off work some afternoon instead of the morning.
Phil Baxter: If there is nothing further to come before this meeting I would look for a motion to adjourn.
Carl Conner:† So moved
Don Williams:† Iíll second the motion.
Motion was made to adjourn the meeting and seconded. Motion was passed with 3-0 vote.