MAY 23, 2007
The Warrick County Drainage board met in regular session with President Phillip H. Baxter presiding, also in attendance were Carl Jay Conner, Vice-President; Don Williams, Secretary; James E. Niemeyer, Surveyor and David K. Zengler, Attorney for Board.
Minutes were recorded and transcribed by Cheryl D. Embry.
Those present in the audience were Randy Folz, Jim Morley, Jr., Lance Stephens,†††††††††††††† and Manny Rydholm.
Phil Baxter:† The meeting of May 23, 2007 will now come to order. The first item on the agenda is the approval of minutes.
APPROVAL OF MINUTES:
Don Williams: †Mr. President, I move that we approve the minutes of May 9, 2007 as presented.
Seconded by Phil Baxter. Motion carried 2-1. Mr. Conner abstained
THE VILLAGES P.U.D DEVELOPMENT:
Jim Niemeyer: The first order of business is concerned with The Villages P.U.D Development. Please state your names.
Kent Brasseale: Kent Brasseale with,† Kahn, Dees, Donavon & Kahn on behalf of the petitioner.
Jim Morley Jr.: Jim Morley, Jr. with Morley & Associates, project engineer.
Lance Stevens:† Lance Stevens with Progressive Custom Homes, Inc.
Phil Baxter: Do we have any changes from last week?
Jim Morley, Jr.:† There are no changes, but I would like to bring forth some additional information to help clarify the topic. I thing there was some confusion on exactly what we were doing so I wanted to try it as easy as I could. May I approach?
To make sure everybody is on the same page here.
The first map (11x 17) that I passed out shows where the Villages is relative to Shadow Ridge Subdivision which kind of surrounds it and the blue line shows the direct path out from the Villages into Angel Ditch. What I wanted to do today, maybe I didnít make myself clear enough last time so I wanted to clarify. As we did the project we researched this piece of ground and then obviously also Shadow Ridge. What I found was if you look at the first sheet with the pie chart that I passed out, the first chart shows that Shadow Ridge was designed by Jim Biggerstaff and what Shadow Ridge had in it was that the Village area (Green area) was calculated to discharge 7.2 cubic feet per second and the orange area was calculated to discharge 21.48 for a total of 2868 which is how they designed basically that whole 20 acres to work together. Shadow Ridge is roughly 15 and the Villages if roughly 5. The next circle down shows what it would look like after the Villages is constructed. We are going to choke the flow down from 7.2 CFS to 1.68 affectively freeing up 5.52 CFS in that pipe. That is roughly 20 % of that pipe will now be freed up to handle flow from anywhere else except the Villages. So I wanted to first show how by putting in the Villages weíre going to free up space in the downstream pipe by not discharging as much as is going there now. The next sheet shows when they designed Shadow Ridge Subdivision they also accounted for storing the area that the Villages is going to be in. The subdivision itself was 14.92 acres, but they also store the 5 acres which is where the Villages was going to be and they came up with needing a basin that was 25,221 cubic feet, for the Villages we are not going to use the retention basin that was provided for Shadow Ridge, we are going to store above and beyond that and you can see for the 4.92 acres in which the Villages is, weíre going to store 30,676 cubic feet and you can see these circles are drawn relative to one another so you can see that our basin will be 22 % larger for an area that was only 25% of the original. So, for our 5 acres alone we are storing more than they were for the entire 20.
Carl Conner:† Jim, I have one quick question, the area that youíre looking at originally from a drainage perspective was included in the Shadow Ridge plan?
Jim Morley, Jr.:† Yes, the green area, when Jim (Biggerstaff) designed it he kind of designed this wholeÖ..Shadow Ridge was only 15 acres and The Villages was 5, but he designed it for the entire 20 acres and Iíve got a copy of those calcs here if you would like to see those. Then the next sheet back looks something like this one here, the red circle at the top is the storm retention that this 20 acres Shadow Ridge plus the 5 acres that The Villages are proposed to go on, thatís how much storm retention is provided today. The one below it is how much storm retention will be provided after this project goes in. So there will be over twice the amount of storage on this 20 acres than there is today. The next sheet back, which would look like this one, the top circle shows that currently with the Shadow Ridge plan that is there all 19.92 acres is going to that Shadow Ridge basin. After The Villages is built only 14.92 acres will go there effectively freeing up 5 acres worth of water shed storage into that basin.
Don Williams:† †Shadow Ridge was designed for 25 year storm, right?
Jim Morley, Jr.:† Correct. So by us coming upstream of that it may now very well store the 50-year storm where it did not have that ability to do that before without over topping its banks because weíll be holding water upstream of it, it will now be able to useÖ.there will be 15 acres filling that basin instead of 20 acres. So weíll be pulling 25% of the watershed out of that basin.
Then my last sheet looks something like this one. What that is per the Warrick County Drainage Ordinance, we are required to store the 50-year storm and release it at the 5-year rate. Lance and I met before we ever brought this piece of property forward to even the pre-sub meeting and we talked about it and we said this is an infield project, which is good so weíre not going out and tackling a new area or whatever. But infield projects always have concerns of drainage, so I said from the get go Lance, lets try to head this off and he agreed. So from the very first neighborhood meeting we committed to them that we would store the 100-year storm instead of the 50-year storm, that wasnít anything that was requested of us it was something that Lance wanted to do from the very beginning to make this a better project for the neighbors. I donít know if the pie graphs helped or hurt. I had a summer intern that was smart enough to know how to make them. But hopefully that kind of clarifies what weíre doing. The retention basin is dramatically oversized and one of the comments that the Chief Deputy Surveyor, Steve Sherwood had he wanted to make sure we had some kind of trash rack available to prevent the outlet from clogging, so we did that and I submitted that to Jim as an addendum. We created a two foot by two foot by two foot cube that is a 4-inch by 4-inch opening mesh similar to hog wire metal and the diagonal distance in a 4 x 4 grid is 5 Ĺ inches so there is nothing that can go through that 5 Ĺ inches to plug that 6 Ĺ inches, so we made sure that our openings in our trash rack were smaller than the openings of our orifice and then not to mention that instead of the 6 square inches of opening that we have, we have over a thousand square inches of opening created by this trash rack cause itís 2 foot by 2 foot by 2 foot and then we put a lid on the top of it cause this is going to be a condominium association. The condominium association on a weekly basis will hire somebody to come out and mow all the lawns and trim the shrubs and one more thing on their lists of things to do every week before they leave the site will be to go check the discharge structure, open the hatch, make sure itís clean and if there is something in there pull it out. This is a little different from a home owners association because some home owners association they never hire a landscape company or whatever so itís a pain for them to go check on the orifice and in this situation they will be out there on a weekly basis. I think weíve brought forward a plan that either meets or exceeds 100% of the ordinances in most places we exceed them and I think itís a good plan and I would ask for your approval and by all means if you have any questions, if I got too confusing I apologize.
Jim Niemeyer:† I donít have any questions, but I would like to make a few remarks.
I did meet with Steve Sherwood as it was requested of me and
we went through everything for example the calculations appear to be in order
and some of the basic things that we uncovered or discussed were such things
as, we agree that it will work on paper. But we would like to see it work in
practice as well and if they donít work then the County gets the nod from
people that are affected. We have a lot of that now and we donít want any more
of that. The other thing is, like you design and we understand that you canít
design for everything, because itís not economical to do that and you canít out
guess Mother Nature. The other thing is that weíve had some experiences of
discharging into older systems and thatís not considered to be the best of
practices because again if there are problems then the County is going to bear
the brunt of that and they will have to fix it. In this case here, weíre
looking at over 500-feet of corrugated metal pipe which is 15-years old and has
a life expectancy of 30-50 years, so itís an aging structure. It may appear to
be good, but that is a factor that you have to consider and there again then
they also become the Countyís problems. What we would like to see is after this
isÖÖthis is a sensitive area thereís no doubt and if problems occur they could
become large and we would like to see an as built of what has taken place on
critical items and I can site an example. Where this comes into play and that
Carl Conner:† So I guess my understanding is Jim that you have some reservation about the drainage that is related to this project, however youíre willing to work with them if theyíre willing to work with you and Iím sure they are, where we could go ahead and approve this tonight so they can go ahead and get started. But as time goes on and you get in the process if you would continue to have Jim involved and have him look at things we could go from there and I would assume that you would all be in agreement with that?
Jim Morley, Jr.: Sure and we would commit tonight to providing you with a full set of as-builts for the entire storm system which is currently not required by Warrick County code but I think itís a good idea and youíre correct, as-builts like that help you catch problems like the ones you mentioned previously. But the developer would commit tonight to doing those as builts and providing those after the installation is done and then also we can give you a call when they have the trash rack made so you can come out and take a look at that and make sure it is sufficient to you.
Jim Niemeyer:† I would support it.
Phil Baxter:† Is there anyone in the audience that would like to speak on behalf of this project one way or the other? What are the wishes of the Board?
Carl Conner I would make a motion that we approve the drainage plan as presented for The Villages P.U.D.
Phil Baxter:† We have a motion to approve, do we have a second?† Iíll second it. All in favor? 2 ayes
Don Williams:† Nay
Motion was passed with two aye votes and one nay vote.
Jim Morley, Jr. asked if the spread sheets were helpful and the Board agreed that they were as it made it easier for them to understand the explanations.
BROOKELYN RIDGE SUBDIVISION: FENCE REQUEST:
Jim Niemeyer:† The next item concerns Brookelyn Ridge Subdivision would Randy Folz be here please?
Randy Folz:† Randy
Folz is my name, I live in Brookelyn Ridge Subdivision in
Don Williams:† What type of fence is it sir?
Mr. Folz: Itís a 6-foot privacy fence.
Don Williams:† Will it be down against the ground?
Mr. Folz: Yes, but there will be a gap between the ground and the fence.
Don Williams:† As long as water can flow underneath it.
Mr. Folz: Yes, itís a steel fence where there are holes through it, itís like a wrought iron fence you can see through it.
Jim Niemeyer:† Would you be willing to sign a Hold Harmless agreement?
Mr. Folz:† Yes
Don Williams:†† Do you know what a Hold Harmless is sir?
Mr. Folz: Yes, to take it down if need be or am responsible if someone gets hurt.
Don Williams:† If we should have to get in there for example for normal cleaning to an emergence cleaning situation the fence would have to come down and we would be under no obligation to put it back up. Do you understand that?
Mr. Folz: Yes, and itís easy and in 8-foot sections and I can just unsnap a couple of brackets and pop it off pretty easy.
Don Williams:† I would move that we approve.
Motion was made by Don and seconded by Carl. Motion passed 3-0.
The next item of business is the
Don Williams:† That doesnít look like Tim Minnett.
Tom Fleener:† My name is Tom Fleener, Iím with Empire Contractors and weíre building a strip center on the lot that weíre talking about today. I guess that itís probably the last lot thatís available out in that particular subdivision.
Jim Niemeyer:† Youíre adjacent to the Mexican restaurant there Los Bravos.
Mr. Fleener: Yes, the very next and last site in there in that development. The people weíre working for and building the building are building a 12,000 square foot building and with the elevation differences on the highway side, the 62 side from a soil standpoint and just from a logistic standpoint as far as construction goes theyíve currently had the building designed 10-foot off the south property line and weíre wanting to move it to 20-feet off the property line to relax some of the steepness of elevation changes and so on and so forth. In order to do that there is a drainage easement on the north side of this property and for some reason the last approximately 100-feet of it angles into the property and Iím not sure what the reasoning is for that. But weíre asking that that angle be relaxed so that we can shift the building and get a full 10-feet to the north to get it away from Hwy 62 a little bit, 10 more feet basically. Our plans for the drainage still meet the master drainage plan everything drains to the north to that easement across the parking lot, it will be sheet drained. The drainage from the east weíre planning on piping under the pavement and piping it onto the west extending a 24-inch drainage pipe that is being used currently at that site. We met yesterday and the relaxing of that really helps, I think with some of the structural aspects of the project and I donít really think that it affects the drainage in any way shape or form. But we certainly donít want to put a building over the top of a drainage easement, so it needs to be relaxed if possible.
Jim Niemeyer:† Iím sorry I forgot to bring our plans up here, but itís a very very small wedge andÖ.
Mr. Fleener: I actually have plans here, I thought Jim would bring his. (pointed out on plans) My understanding of the master drainage plan the drainage continues on out passed this property to the west. This is the angle that Iím talking about and as you can see there is like a 13-foot elevation difference at the edge of this property right here and if youíre sitting 10-feet off itís just going to be an unusually steep slope and it would be in the owners best interest to get at least another 10-feet. Well, because of that angle he can get about 4-feet but he canít get 10-feet without encroaching on the easement. This really affects nothing with the drainage all the drainage is coming this way anyway, the drainage coming from this direction is coming underneath the parking lot. All of our drainage is still going to go this direction and this angle, Iím quite honestly not real sure why it was there to begin with.
Don Williams:†† ††Could you roll that out a little. Are you at liberty to say whatís going in there?
Mr. Fleener: I donít know who he has leased it to. I know heís got five spaces, one 4,000 and twoÖÖÖ.
Don Williams:† There are 4 separate entrances, it looks like.
Mr. Fleener:† Yes, sir actually I think heís going to do 5.
Don Williams:† Now this takes in and Iím sure it does the widening of 62 and everything, all thatís taken into consideration.
Mr. Fleener: Yes, I think its north of it.
Don Williams:† I know its north of it I just wanted to make sureÖ.
Carl Conner:† I know this is going to be a silly question and it doesnít have anything to do with my decision but I just want to know one thing? Why donít you just flip the building around and you wonít have the drainage problem?
Mr. Fleener:† Wal-Mart wonít let them. There are other issues Iíve asked about, this is the worst possible place from a construction standpoint in my opinion, but Wal-Mart wonít let them and I guess the developer didnítÖ.according to him they want him to set it like his tenants in order for him to lease the building it has to set like this. So,ÖI just build them, I donít know.
Carl Conner:† And I understand and it doesnít have any impact on how Iím going to vote, but I was just curious as to why you donít just flip the building?
Mr. Fleener: That would be much easier, believe me and much less expensive from the owners standpoint.
Don Williams:† Wal-Mart must have some kind of agreement where you canít block the view of the store, it sounds to me like.
Mr. Fleener:† Itís something like that.
Jim Niemeyer:† I donít believe itís going to create any problems at all from what I can see.
Phil Baxter: It was a good question, though Carl.† Any other questions?
Don Williams:† So your recommendation is to approve?
Jim Niemeyer:† Yes
Don Williams:† I would vote that we approve.
Carl Conner:† Second
Motion was made and seconded to approve encroachment. Motion passed 3-0.
The next item for discussion is
Carl Conner:† I move that we approve the claims in the amount of $919. 43.
Don Williams:† Second.
Motion was made and seconded to pay claims. Motion passed 3-0.
Manny Rydholm: Manny
Jim Niemeyer:† I spoke with the Schnucks Engineer and Schnucks will sign the petition for a legal drain and I left a sheet of paper with different thoughts and clauses that they had, I need to give it to Mr. Zengler to read and to get his opinion to whether itís the thing to do or not. But basically they are in agreement with us, they arenít making any outrageous demands on us so we can live with that. I have not heard from Springview Apartments and I will write them one more letter, it will be certified. I did not find, they are supposed to install an orifice in their detention pond and it has not been done. I have not had any response from them at all.
Manny Rydholm:† Is that the only thing that remains for them to do, were they supposed to enlarge that too as it was undersized?
Jim Niemeyer:† Well, itís not build according to plan, itís not too small, I donít think but itís notÖÖHenry Nodarse said that thereís not enough error to make that much difference and there isnít that much. But we can ask them to do that.
Mr. Rydholm:† Do we think its an issue, Iím not trying to change things mid-stream, I think if we can get out of them what we really think is most important, I think thatís the key thing.
Jim Niemeyer:† I would like for them to sign that petition, Springview, at least on the east end of their building there cause we need to clean that ditch thatís 300-400 feet in length and its very narrow and really clogged up.
Mr. Rydholm thanked the Board.
Mr. Baxter asked people in the audience if they had anything for the Drainage Board, they answered that they were from Stonehaven for the next meeting. Mr. Williams stated he was very disappointed as there was no one from Stonehaven. The couple answered that they too were disappointed and would have been here but they were out of the Country.
Don Williams made a motion to adjourn. Seconded by Carl Conner. Motion passed 3-0.