JUNE 27, 2007

3:00 P.M.



The Warrick County Drainage Board met in regular session with President Phillip H. Baxter presiding, also in attendance were Don Williams, Secretary, James E. Niemeyer, Surveyor and David K. Zengler, Attorney for the Board. Mr. Conner was absent.

Sean Owen Deputy Surveyor was also present.


Minutes were recorded and transcribed by Cheryl D. Embry.


Those present in the audience were Lowell Granderson, Ed Willis, Donna Willis, Marshall Boyd, Sylvia Charlotte Phillips, Jon Phillips, Ted Stahl, Nathan Mominee


Phil Baxter:The meeting of June 27, 2007 will now come to order. Cheryl would like the minutes tabled until July 11, 2007.


Don Williams:So moved


Phil Baxter: Second


Motion was made to table minutes until July 11, 2007 motion passed 2-0.






Jim Niemeyer:Would Mr. Mominee come up please.


Nathan Mominee:Nathan Mominee with Sitcom, Inc.


Jim Niemeyer: His project is Castle Orchard Estates and was tabled from the last meeting which gave us a chance to further review their plans and the drainage calculations were reviewed and the work that they are proposing will add very little additional water to the outflow, in fact only a tenth of a cubic foot per second and that amount of water could be within the realm of error of any calculations because these are empirical equations and so itís possible to be that there isnít any excess flow. But itís very safe.


Don Williams:There was aÖin looking at it there was that one lot there where a home was going to be built and I donít think we could impose this on anybody, but if the gutter drainage from that one building was sent I guess to the east that would probably eliminate the tenth of a cubic foot, would it not?


Jim Niemeyer :Yes, and I think that would be a question, would they be willing to do that.


Don Williams:It may make more expense but it would definitely make sure there is no flooding.


Mr. Mominee: Right, there would be no increase in fact it would probable a decrease in the runoff if the downspouts from the new home construction were directed to the east side of the ridge and thatís more than likely to be the case because if the current developer builds on that lot and I believe he plans to build on all the lots in the subdivision since there are only 5 new lots he wants to do a walkout basement that looks onto the existing basin to the east. He would do a curtain drain around the house that would capture all the downspouts and direct that storm water runoff from the roof to the east to the existing basin on the east side of the ridge. Which if that were the case then it would be a negative amount of runoff from what they are currently seeing.


Don Williams:I donít think we have the ability to tell them to do that but we would definitely like to see that, but we donít have any control.


Mr. Mominee: The builder is aware of that and he actually made that proposition to me. The only circumstance that might make that not come to light is if someone was very interested in that lot and financially it wasnít feasible for him to not do that sell and they wanted to build out near Castle Garden Road. But I find that to be very unlikely because most people want to put their homes at the top of the hill to prevent drainage issues.


Don Williams:That was all my questions, Mr. President.


Phil Baxter:That was the only question I had. Does anyone want to say anything?


Lowell Granderson:Lowell Granderson 1222 Bell Road. This fellow says heís with Sitcom and at your last meeting you referred this back to Steve Sherwood. I got on the line and found out that Steve Sherwood is one of the owners of Sitcom, so it donít surprise meÖ..


Don Williams:Weíre aware of that.


Lowell Granderson: Iím aware of it too and I just want it for the record that I know that too. Youíre the surveyor, I called you about minutes for the meeting and you said your secretary is on vacation. I do want a copy of these minutes and the minutes from last week.


Jim Niemeyer:They will come availableÖÖ


Don Williams:I have no problem personally of having another individual to go out and make the same calculations to see if he comes up with the same thing as Mr. Sherwood did.

Mr. Mominee: Mr. Sherwood actually said that he would not comment on this project because of the direct conflict of interest.


Mr. Granderson:It definitely is.


Don Williams:He called me, Mr. Sherwood called me and told me the same thing.


Mr. Mominee: That is why he has not made a formal statement to this Board.


Mr. Granderson:Okay, but I want it on record that it is a definite conflict of interest in my opinion.


Don Williams:Mr. Sherwood called me and told me that he would not make any official comment because of that issue. Thatís why Iím saying that I would be more than happy if it would give you all more piece of mind to have somebody completely unattached in any way to look at that, I donít have a problem with doing that.


Mr. Granderson:My sisterís got some pictures here I would like to show you. (Mr. Baxter asked Mr. Granderson to show the Board where he was located on the map)


Don Williams:The thing is if it wasnít for that house already on there we, by statute weíd have to approve it. You do understand that, if it was not for the house already there we would have had to approve it because our statute says if the lots are 2 Ĺ acres or more there is no drainage required. That is what the County Statute actually says. But right now we have that ability because they included that house that is already built that so we can have the Surveyor come in and look at it and make sure that itís not going to flood anybody and that your not going to get any more or hopefully even less water than youíre getting now. Because we have enough flood issues already in this county and I can tell you there is nobody on this Board that wants to do anything that would cause any additional water or flooding.


Mr. Granderson: I want to show you a couple of pictures, this is Bell Road.


Mr. Mominee: This is where the storm water exits our site and these are the people who were invited to the meeting surround the property.


Mr. Granderson:Thatís fine, I donít have to be invited.


Mr. Mominee: Hereís the property here, here is where the County road drains and it drains under Castle Garden Road flows here and flows along this path you can see the contours from the USGS maps and this is the valley.


Mr. Granderson: I know what it is, I believe this is my barn right here, this waterÖ..


Mr. Mominee:This is Mr. Stahlís property.


Mr. Granderson: This is Mr. Stahlís property, well, my property is right directly behind it joins Tedís, this waterÖI canít tell the tree line, the water comes downÖI took maybe 25 years ago 30 years ago took a backhoe and opened this where this water comes down through here and kind of spread it out so that the water comes down through, cause it eats up this field. It runs down and runs downÖthereís a tree line that runs east and west, is this the tree line.


Mr. Mominee: Here is a large tree line that is running North and South.


Mr. Granderson:Well, if this is Tedís I adjoin Tedís but anyway it runs right down this property line and then it runs down a tree line. Let me see those pictures.


It was discussed that the only people Mr. Mominee had to advise about this project are the people who adjoin the proposed property.


Mr. Granderson:Here is some of the water that already comes down through there and thatís Danís property. Can we get some more people here?


Mr. Mominee: Something was impounding that water down here to keep it from not wanting to flow.


Mr. Granderson:Yeah, it canít get across Bell Road, it backs up on Bell Road.


Mr. Mominee:So, Bell Road is an impoundment?


Mr. Granderson: The water backs up from Bell Road there is so much that comes from over there that the water backs up Bell Road, the culvert runs full. Where your culvert is under Castle Garden Road, I went over there with just the road they put in, I donít know if they got approval for the road. But the water coming off that road, the next problem youíre going to have is Castle Garden Road with that culvert under Castle Garden Road the water is going to back up and it wonítÖ..so that Castle Garden Road will act as a dam.


Mr. Mominee:I have analyzed that pipe and that pipe isÖ( I could not hear Mr. Momineeís answer because two other people started taking at the same time)


Lady from the audience talking about property she owns.


Don Williams:Where is your property maíam? And if you would please state your name. You donít have to pick it up.


Charlotte Phillips: My name is Charlotte Philips and I live at 1244 Bell Road, Chandler, Indiana.


Mr. Mominee: What it sounds like is that Bell Roadís culvert is undersized and itís creating an impounding condition which is damming this water up in the valley and I mean if it rains here it is going to hold water back.


Ms. Phillips:I have a $100,000.00 investment here, I have a new manufactured home and this is how much water Iím already getting and this would be looking toward Castle Garden Road. (showing pictures)


Mr. Mominee:From this point here we are 6% of this watershed, thatís how much my area, thatís how much weíre contributing to this point where water crosses Bell Road and that culvert, we are 6% of that total watershed. If we created a detention basin for 5:50 year storm weíre not going to help your problem. That is not going to help your problem, what is going to help your problem is if whatever is holding that water back becomes a larger opening and allows that water to be released at a faster rate. And then this guy can come and yell at you for releasing to much water on him too fast.


Mr. Granderson:Well, heís not here today, he was here the other day.


Mr. Mominee: But I donít think heís going to because he doesnít have a $100,000.00 investment down here and he probably does have a more defined flow path for that water to travel through. But I donít believe itís our responsibility to take care of this problem.


Mr. Granderson: We just donít want anymoreÖ..Iím not opposed to your subdivision and thatís fine. We just canít stand any more water over there.


Don Williams:We just want to make sure that you donít get any additional water.


Ms. Phillips: Yeah, we donít need any more water than we already got.


Don Williams:I think everybody agrees to that, I think what we need to do isÖÖ


Mr. Phillips:And I put my place where the County said to put it to keep it out of the flood plain and if it causes a problem then whose problem is it?


Don Williams:Thatís why we have to make sure.


Mr. Phillips: Thatís why weíre here.


(Discussion on pictures of when they were taken (spring 2006)

Discussion with everybody talking at once about the big rain last year, can only pick up fragments of what is being said.)


Mr. Mominee: Well, folks what Iím trying to explain to you is for one weíre not..from the existing condition to the proposed condition as Mr. Niemeyer said the calculable increase in flow is a tenth of a foot per second when your seeing probably in the order of 80 cubic feet per second down here. Thatís an incalculable difference of flow, weíre not increasing, weíre not going to make this situation worse. But even is we put a detention basin up here we are not going to make your situation better because we are 6% of this..

This is approximately 50 acres where this purple line goes around here and our area of this whole area of water that is contributing to this point is about 6 to 7% just by gross area. So the problem is down here where the water is getting backed up. When we do subdivisions with detention we put the detention at the bottom of the valley and thatís where we hold it back which would be right down in here because youíre going to help more people by getting at the bottom to catch the water there.


Mr. Granderson: If the County didnít increase the size of the culvert there at Castle Garden Road but I just feel like it wasÖÖÖÖÖ.


Mr. Mominee:And that culvert right here that is taking basically everything on the east side of Castle Garden thatís about 10 acres and thatís about 20% of that overall watershed so 4/5 of that is all coming from the west side of all that rain water, so weíre all gonnaÖ..you know if there was a detention detaining Mr. Diekmanís water and the Herrís water if we put a detention detaining all their water which is I donít think is our responsibility by any means.


Mr. Granderson: I donít think it is either.


Mr. Mominee:Weíre only going to be helping out by a 5th of the overall contributing water to this whole watershed.


Mr. Granderson:What I would like to have is, probably canít get this but if you guys come from the County, Iím talking about because they will eventually I believe that will back up on Castle Garden Road to the east and then somebody will come along from the County and say this is not enough drainage under Castle Garden Road. The County will come along dig that up and put a bigger drainage in and weíll have more water.


Mr. Mominee:Mr. Granderson, I have analyzed the pipe under Castle Garden Road, it is 24-inch horizontal metal pipe, it will carry in excess of the 100 year flow for this 10 acres that is contributing to that pipe right now. That pipe is not going to back up, just from your pictures and your comments it sounds like the pipe under Bell Road is either clogged with debrisÖ.or itís just not big enoughÖ..


Mr. Granderson:Itís not. The County it hasnít been that many years ago took the old one out it was too small and put this one in, itís too small.


Don Williams:So you think the new one is too small also.


Mr. Granderson:Absolutely, it wonít take the water.


Don Williams:Okay okay,Wonít you take your seats I think Iíve heard all I need to hear thank you. Mr. President if itís okay with you why donít we have our Surveyor get with our Engineer and check out the culvert on Bell Road first of all and before we do anything lets find out if it is the proper size. I also would make part of my motion just so everybody is at ease as far as the actual amount of cubic feet of water that is coming off that, lets have a independent surveyor not attached to the project do this for us. Get somebody from Morley or whoever you need BLA it doesnít matter to me to go out and look at this and get somebody who is not connected to this project in any way shape or form sign off on it and put their license on the line like they should cause thatís what we really need. I think it would give these people more ease of mind and it will certainly give more ease of mine and if there is some kind of contraction or restriction on the Bell Road culvert if it needs to be larger, lets get our engineer Bobby Howard out there to look at that and that wonít be part of the approval but it needs to be done before the rainy season gets here. I know thatís not what you wanted to hearÖ.


Mr. Mominee: Is there anyway possible to go ahead and not table our road approval so we can go ahead with our Area Plan approval contingent upon drainage approval because Iím 100% confident and a professional engineer Keith Paul from my office has signed and stamped this plan with his liability and that is kind of where the shoe should drop.


Don Williams:Thatís the next Boardís decision and I know weíre on it but Iím going to have to think on it. It sounds to me like youíre already doing it anyway.


Mr. Mominee:Weíre on the agenda for the nextÖ..


Don Williams:No I mean building roads out there.


Mr. Mominee: We have a drive-way permit.


Mr. Granderson:Thatís a drive-way?


Mr. Mominee:Itís a nice drive-way.


Mr. Granderson: Iím telling you, just this little rain that weíve had and we havenít had much you look at it run down not your ditches but your drive-way cause youíve got dirt piled up beside it, there is a tremendous amount of water comes down that drive-way and it gets over to Castle Garden Road, that ditch Iím talking about backs up.


Don Williams:Well, lets look at it and look at both drainage structures and weíre going to wait and do this, as far as Iím concerned, my motion would beÖlet me restate my motions if I could. I would move that we have the Engineer check the pipes on both Bell Road and Castle Garden Road for property sizing also as part of that motion I recommend that an independent surveyor be contracted to do the calculations. I would like to make absolutely sure that these people get no more water than they do now and preferably less.


Phil Baxter:I agree


Don Williams:I donít have a problem with itÖ..

Mr. Mominee: Is there any kind of time line that we can beÖ..


Don Williams:Yeah, we will beÖ. I know you have a window also and like I say if you hadnít of put that really if you hadnít put that house that was already there as part of it, this wouldnít even be an issue cause whenever there is 2 Ĺ acres we have a law that says this and we have to do it. So you want a deadline where we will make a decision?


Mr. Mominee: Well, I just donít want to be put off indefinitely.


Don Williams:No, and I donít want to do that. I donít get that as intent of these people either. They just donít want any more water. I tell you what why donít we give them a decision on the first meeting in July and weíll definitely give you a decision.


Mr. Mominee: So that will also put us on the schedule for the Area Plan?


Don Williams:Itís on the same day.


Mr. Granderson: I certainly donít have any problem with your subdivision just the water.


Ed Willis:Ed Willis 7977 Eddy Lane. Now I heard this gentleman say that the water was going to be held away from the house and buildings thatís present, is that what I understood you to say you put a barrier wall somehow to shield the water to the east?


Mr. Mominee: No here is the top of the ridge that the purple line indicates,,,


Mr. Willis:Yeah, whereís the lake?


Mr. Mominee: There is an existing pond right here. The new house on this lot 2 which will be a new improvement, it itís built on top of the ridge I said we would propose catching the downspout water in a curtain drain and directing that downspout water into this existing pond.


Mr. Willis: Okay, you know where that goes? It goes right across my valley down here. Eddy Lane runs right straight to my house. I live right in here, Eddy Lane has gone a low place in it and it floods even now every time we have an abnormal rain at all even an average rain because everything that goes in that lake overflows and floods that ditch and I canít hardly drive my car through it.


Don Williams:Okay letsÖ..


Mr. Willis:So what youíre doing is youíre shuttling water to keep from coming this way which is still going to be a problem and youíre putting more water this way and itís going to flood that road period.


Mr. Mominee: Well when your on top of a hill thatís what happens ( both men started arguing and talking at the same time) so most of it is inaudible.


Don Williams:That should be part of whatís looked at.


Mr. Willis:Well you almost have to because the more you shed the water the other direction the more youíre going to create here and itís going to wash that road and Iíve lived there for 35 years. I put the road in and donated it to the County.


Don Williams: Well, weíre going to look at it all.


The motion was made and seconded to have the surveyor go out and check the calcs and also that the engineer make sure that the pipes are the appropriate size and also look at the Eddy Road issue, I donít know if there is anything we can do about that, we might be able to put a berm back there, thatís my motion. Seconded by Phil Baxter. Motion carried 2-0.




Jim Niemeyer:Please state your name.


Marshall Boyd:Iím Marshall Boyd with Verizon Wireless at 800 Russell Road, Chandler, Indiana 47610. Verizon Wireless is in the process of proposing an additional 3000 square foot onto the existing switch facility there in doing so we are going to have to be relocating a cover shed that actually houses some of our emergency equipment. We are going to be relocating that to the east of the property and in putting that shed back in and paving an additional like 8000 square feet.


Don Williams:Now thereísÖam I looking at two lakes there and all the drainage is going into those two lakes?


Mr. Boyd:Most of the drainage from this new facility will actually drain into this area here, cause there is an existing culvert pipe right here that is shown on the plans and it flows to the north.


Don Williams:And Verizon owns all of this?


Mr. Boyd: Yes, we own all this lot right here, we do not own that but I think it actually flows toward the west there and thereís a valley there.


Don Williams:Jim, do you have any concerns about this VerizonísÖÖhave you looked at it?


Jim Niemeyer:Theyíre runoff will be very small maybe 4 tenths of a cubic foot per second.


Don Williams:I donít have any other statements, M. President. I move we approve Verizonís request to the drainage expansion on Russell Road. Seconded by Phil Baxter. Motion carried 2-0.




Phil Baxter: Springston Canterbury tabled?


Don Williams: Yes, Mr. President, I would like to look at the drainage structure on Vann Road before we take any action here, I donít know if you had a chance to read the surveyorís report and I would like to say to Jim, this is an excellent report and it looks to me like there are problems in the Springston Subdivision with fences and so forth it looks to me like. It definitely looks like the development retention pond is not designed as the plat says and it looks to me like we might need to do some work on the pipe on Vann Road and I would like to have our Engineer look at that pipe on Vann Road. If you will coordinate that with him Jim before we get together and then I would think the proper action to take here would be to sit down with Mr. Holweger or a representative from the development there or a representative from Springston Canterbury Association and one of us on this Board and work it out cause I think everybody has a little work to do it looks to me like to make it work.


Phil Baxter:I agree


Don Williams:So I move that we table item 1 there under drainage discussions.


Phil Baxter:Why donít we just take if off until we get it worked out.


Don Williams:Okay Iíll rescind that motion and instead of tabling it I would ask that the Springston Canterbury Green Subdivision be taken off the agenda until thatís been done and hopefully that will be some time next month we can put it back on the agenda.


Jim Niemeyer:So weíll want to resize a culvert on the far west endÖ


Don Williams:Yeah, we want Bobby to look at that our engineer and if it does need it we need to look to see how quickly we can get that done because that would be a real issue for the County.


Jim Niemeyer:There is a lot of water that comes down there from the North of Vann Road just a tremendous amount and if it canít get through there then itís going to cause a flood.


Phil Baxter:I agree with the motion and Iíll second it. Motion carried 2-0.







Don Williams:I talked to Mr. Wells before the meeting, he was talking about the roadside ditches on 261 there and I explained to him that this Board that was a state highway and the state is actually responsible for those ditches, that this Board had no jurisdiction and he wanted to give Jim a letter so he left a letter with Jim. So for the time being I guess that would be a dead issue so I would move that issue also be removed from the agenda.


Phil Baxter:Ok, Iíll second it. Motion carried 2-0.




Phil Baxter:We have claims in the amount of $4,647.79.


Don Williams:I move we pay the claims.


Seconded by Phil Baxter, Motion carried 2-0.


Don Williams moved to adjourn seconded by Phil Baxter. Motion carried 2-0.