DECEMBER 12, 2007

3:00 P.M.




The Warrick County Drainage Board met in regular session with President Phillip H. Baxter presiding, also in attendance were Nova Conner, Vice-President; Don Williams, Secretary; James. E. Niemeyer, Surveyor and David K. Zengler, Attorney for Board.

Also present Sean M. Owen, Deputy Surveyor.

Minutes were recorded and transcribed by Cheryl D. Embry.


Those present in the audience were Jim Farny,




Phil Baxter:  Warrick County Drainage Board December 12, 2007 will now come to order. The first item on the agenda is the approval of minutes for November 14, 2007.


Don Williams:  Move to approve.


Nova Conner:  Second.


Motion was made and seconded to approve minutes. Motion carried 3-0.


Phil Baxter:  Okay, Jim I guess we’ll start with the school.


Jim Niemeyer: The first item on the Drainage plan is the new Middle School of Warrick School Corporation.


Don Williams:  That’s not the one we’ve got in front of us is it?


Nova Conner: This is the high school?


Jim Niemeyer:  I gave you the High School. Here comes Jim Farny now.






Jim Farny: Hi, sorry I didn’t know Boonville was that big of a town, I got caught in a traffic jam. My name is Jim Farny I work for Bernardin and Lochmueller and the Engineer for the Warrick County School Corporation on the Middle School side and we’re here to ask you to approve a drainage plan that we’ve laid before you. What the school is doing is they are doing some additions on the North side of the school……

(someone in the audience interrupted Mr. Farny and told him this was the Middle School not the High School).


Jim Farny: I’m sorry, let me start all over. All right, the middle school.

Warrick County School Corporation is getting ready to build a new Middle School on Casey Road South of Vann Avenue. It’s a brand new school and it’s going to be built in the middle of a field on top of a hill and we’re the Engineer that designed the site for the Middle School and what we’re proposing is a drainage plan that constructs a drainage basin at the Southwest corner of the site which would be directly below the football field that you see on the drawing. We designed the basin in accordance with the Warrick County Storm Water Regulations and believe that all is in accordance with that document. The water will release at the Southwest corner of the basin which would be the Southwest corner of the site and enter into an existing ditch that runs south towards Summer-Pecka Ditch.


Nova Conner: Could you just come up here and show that?


Mr. Farny: This is the basin (showing Board on the Plan itself) I’m describing, this is the football field. This is Casey Road over here, this is the new school, the running track and this is the retention basin down here. Basically this is the top of the hill so we’ve taken all this water that currently runs that way and before it leaves the site we’re routing it through a storm retention basin that we designed down here and the release from the basin is right in the corner down here and it goes into an existing ditch down there and then it goes through a project that’s being developed into mini storage units and its part of that project they put in a 29 x 45 inch concrete pipe which is bigger than the 18-inch diameter pipe that we’re releasing thru. So we’re releasing less than what they provided to pass before so it should cause them no problem and everything is in accordance with the Drainage Ordinance in terms of how much we’re storing and how we’re releasing the water.


Jim Niemeyer: Is that a 100 year, Jim?


Jim Farny: The basin has a 100 year capacity, yes and it is a dry basin. All these lines here are all storm sewers that’s taking the water to the basin.


Don Williams:  Where does it go when it leaves the basin, what ditch?


Jim Niemeyer: Eventually it winds up in Summer-Pecka Ditch.


Mr. Farny: It goes South through a project they’re developing into a storage unit facility and there was a ditch in there but I guess they came to you previously and got approval to pipe that ditch and they’ve recently installed a 29 X 45 inch elliptical pipe which is equivalent to a 36-inch diameter pipe and we’re releasing our water within 18 so we’re releasing not even half of what they have the capacity for. So we don’t feel like we’re going to cause any problem there what-so-ever.


Nova Conner: Because we have had so many flooding issues. Did Steve get a look at this?


Jim Niemeyer: Yes, he and I have been out there 2 or 3 times reviewing this and we have discussed all of the alternatives and he is happy with the plan.


Don Williams:  What I want to know is where the water goes.


Jim Niemeyer:  Well, when it comes out of here Don, it comes out here and it traverses almost due south for about 150-200 feet then it connects to that concrete structure and then from there to goes south and continues under that street there behind Buy-Low and then it goes into the same stream as Summer-Pecka Ditch.


Don Williams:  So the water’s going west?


Jim Niemeyer:  It’s going east.


Don Williams:  I mean east.


Jim Niemeyer: Then it eventually gets into Cypress Creek.


Nova Conner:  Where’s the storage unit that you said it is eventually going to dump into?


Sean Owen: It’s the subdivision right behind Buehlers Buy low store right there where that pet supply store is behind Buehlers, there is a storage area there. It’s the ditch in-between the two stores.


Don Williams:  Steve has looked at the issue and says…..


Jim Niemeyer: Like I said we’ve met out there at least three (3) times.


Don Williams:  I don’t want to know how many times you met out there Jim, I want to know what you’re Surveyor said.


Jim Niemeyer: He’s satisfied with it and he has also had discussions with Mr. Farny too.


Nova Conner: I hope because we’ve had so many issues.


Phil Baxter: Well, this is going to an area to though that we have no problems with. It is going in the opposite direction.


Don Williams:  We don’t have a problem in that area right now, but we don’t want to start one either. You say it’s designed at a 100 and a release of 5?


Mr. Farny:  Yes, the basin is pretty big as you can see by the drawing there it takes up a pretty big area so it has a lot of capacity. But that’s a pretty big site too.


Phil Baxter: Any other questions? What are the wishes of the Board?


Don Williams:  Move to approve.


Nova Conner:  Second.


Motion was made and seconded to approve Castle Middle School. Motion carried 3-0.




Jim Niemeyer:  The next item of discussion is Castle High School.


Mike Buente: I’m Mike Buente with BPS Architecture.


Jim Farny: I’m Jim Farny with Bernardin Lochmueller. What we’ve got here is we’ve got a…Mike, you want to give them the background?


Mike: Sure, We’re adding three (3) additions to Castle High School, one to the north which is an auditorium, one to the west which is the media center and there’s actually one to the south a very small one which is a greenhouse addition. The greenhouse addition really isn’t contributing at all to the drainage situation. The existing drainage and the pattern in this area basically goes….drains east and west from a line right through here. This is an existing duct (?) bank this double line you see through here. The existing survey grade you can see are in light grey here and the contours currently go to the west in that direction and they go south into excuse me to the east, I’m upside down and to the west this way. The present music and band addition, class room addition has roof drains as well as this existing parking lot and the media center all drains to the west currently or as it was before we started construction. The area where the pool is and the baseball diamond and this parking lot all goes to the east. We are cutting off this twelve (12) inch line here taking all the roof water from the auditorium and all the parking lot here and still going east with it. Presently the way it was designed and you correct me if I say anything wrong Jim. The parking lot is still traveling down to this corner which is the structure 109, we have a road that is eventually going to connect to the highway, presently it’s going to come out about here and stop until INDOT does their improvements. But this road is being picked up by these two (2) structures and this currently goes to the west via an 18-9nch underground line.


Don Williams:  Why did you take it west since it’s currently flowing to the east?


Mike: Well, the current line going to the east is a twelve (12) inch line, now the capacity that Jim Farny calculated is an eighteen (18) and we have an alternative solution here to present to you in a minute but I would like to present what these drawings show first. We have taken it to the west and taken it to this retention basin. This entire area is a retention basin (structure 108) and then we do have a restructure plate here, right Jim.


Mr. Farny: No, it accesses through a smaller pipe and then there is a bigger pipe so we’ve just reduced the pipe size there.


Don Williams:  Where is that?


Mr. Farny: Right there, so we restricted that, we’ve got eighteen (18) coming in and we’re only allowing twelve (12) out. So that’s what’s telling it to hold water because you’ve got the ability to put more water than it can take out at the same time.


Nova Conner: What was it normally?


Mr. Farny: The twelve (12) inch would have been with a pre developed area. Now what we’ve done because we found out there were concerns with the neighborhood across the street. What we’ve done is we’ve gone one step further, once the water went through there we came down to this structure here which is 106 and we put a restructure plate on the outlet side of that pipe which only has an eight (8) inch diameter hole. So effectively we’ve reduced it down to an eight (8) inch diameter pipe will allow out. Now by putting the…because this is uphill from there we couldn’t do all the restriction here that we would normally like to do that’s why it’s downstream. But by putting it downstream in the system what we’ve accomplished is some of the water that currently before we even started this project in the past would go out unimpeded is not caught by that eight (8) inch orifice plate. So we’ve made another attempt to try to grab and take care of not all of what was not programmed the first time the school was built but some of it as much as we thought we could logistically grab and feasibly grab. So we’ve made an effort here that we feel like compensates for what we’re asking for there and then we’ve tried to go one step farther and grab some more because of the concerns. Now everything from that point once it gets through the 8 inch pipe continues south and then there’s a pipe under the highway that’s a 21 inch diameter pipe and it would exit that pipe as it always has. This is the pipe that the neighborhood is so concerned about. Now we’re not proposing any changes to that pipe, we’re not proposing to put a bigger pipe in that would allow more water out or anything else we’re intentionally making sure that we’re controlling our run-off so that it doesn’t over tax that pipe so that pipe won’t….it’s what they’ve always had. The pipe probably even pre-dates the subdivision. So that’s what our thinking was on this, now there is and I need to tell you because I don’t think we got to this, there is a drain that currently comes out of the band room that goes straight into the sewer well we’ve got to move it for the building so we’re re-routing it but it will be tied back in and there’s just no way we can avoid that but it’s always been there too, I mean since the original school, it’s been there.


Mike: This is how Jim has designed, now we’ve had conversations in the last couple of days with the school corporation and amongst ourselves and I guess we’re coming to you today to ask you or to present to you an alternative. As I said earlier this duct bank located basically due north of the music building most of that water went east and as it goes east it travels either into these catch basins or surface drains down the parking lot goes to Casey Road. When it hits Casey Road it actually drains north to about maybe the middle of the baseball field where there’s a culvert that goes under Casey Road that travels east and there’s a property residence with a white fence that has a rip-rapped drainage ditch through the center of their property that goes on south travels under Vann Road and I’m not sure where it goes after it goes under Vann, that’s how it drains now. What we’re proposing to do……


Don Williams: Drain it into a pit?


Jim Niemeyer: It goes south and eventually gets into Summer-Pecka, it goes along Casey Road.


Mike: What the school corporation is willing to do and Jim with your approval is to eliminate this 18-inch line which is the 109 not take this water west but instead connect it east with the 12-inch line, now that doesn’t have the capacity for the large rains so what we would do for that situation is cut through this island with an overflow gutter surface drain so when the water or the rain exceeds the 12-inch pipe it would actually surface drain across the parking lot and end up back in Casey. It would go to the same ditch just via surface but the same way it does today. That would eliminate the concern west of this water contributing to the neighborhood. Then because we have a restrictor plate here the parking lot water that is currently going west, all these structures here would all back up into this retention basin.


Nova Conner: So you’re saying we wouldn’t have any additional either way than we presently have.


Mr. Farny:  It would just sit in here until it could relieve itself through the 8-inch hole. So we would take this water from the parking lot and take it away from their concern and instead of saying that’s it everything’s status quo, we’re still offering to put the 8-inch orifice plate in there to try to even reduce the current load that you have.


Don Williams:  That’s just a restrictor it’s just going to slow it up a little bit, it’s not going to retain it.


Mr. Farny: If you have a very small rain it won’t retain it, but if you have a rain that exceeds what can go through the 8-inch hold then it will temporarily back up into here and as the rain quits raining then in time it would empty back out. So that when it’s not raining it’s dry.


Mike: We’ve increased the capacity of this by taking this water along this way and not putting into here.


Don Williams:  Where does the water if the drainage retention pond fills up? If you back up the water and the pond itself overflows where does the water go?


Mr. Farny: Well, anytime we build a pond we build an emergency spillway, so we’ve shown an emergency spillway here but I don’t know ……….So it would go into the highway ditch and then it would in turn go back to the same location. But that is an emergency spillway that I don’t know will ever be used. I mean that elevation is up about 3-foot from the bottom of that basin, so this would have to be sitting full of water about 3-feet before it would even come out there. But currently it has nothing holding it back, we’re talking about the same amount of area today that’s already paved that is currently going out and it’s not overflowing the highway or anything else.


Don Williams:  So how much impervious area are you actually adding? You’re saying none?


Mr. Farny: To this watershed, none. To this watershed the area of this parking lot because everything below this parking lot even though we building buildings we are building on top of whats today pavement, so everything below this road here today is already impervious.


Don Williams:  With currently no retention. Now you’re saying with the alternative you can take this to the west and we can take it down to Summer-Pecka, I mean to the east.


Mr. Farny: We would connect this….if we run this pipe instead of this way we’d run it here and not even put this pipe in.


Mike: Then we’d put an emergency spillway through that……..so when it fills up it would spill onto that….. (both gentlemen kept interrupting each other so it was impossible to hear the finished sentence)


Nova Conner: But you did say you spoke with the homeowners association and that is why you changed to this, is that what you’re saying?


Mike: We did not talk to them the school corporation did, but we know they have concerns. One of the concerns is going the opposite direction as it does or did before construction started. We couldn’t alter too many grades here because of the electrical duct bank that sort of sets up the grades through here. But looking at the natural…if you see these contours how they are existing that is the natural break line where they put the duct bank.


Don Williams:  Okay, explain to me one more time in your alternative how you’re going to make this go to the east? What are you changing I know you’re talking about…(he was interrupted)


Mr. Farny: We’re not going to put this pipe in right here. So to drain this parking lot then cause the water is still going to this inlet which is what this is, we’re going to run a pipe from here to here.


Jim Niemeyer:  Excuse me start over and give the homeowners a chance.

The homeowners came to the podium and they explained it to them on the drawings.

The homeowners disagreed with Mr. Farny about where all the water goes. They stated that the holding pond in Old hickory overflows approximately 12 times in a year in people’s yards and into the streets. They wanted to come up with a way to turn all the water straight to Vann Road Ditch. They said it didn’t make sense to bring it from the east to the west to take it back to the east. It also starts above ground then goes underground and back and forth several times. They stated that it is basically a great big U.


Phil Baxter: Folks, I’d really like this to be solved but we have other business to attend to also.


One of the gentleman stated that there had to be a way for the water to go to the Vann Road Ditch before 2012 when we agreed to do that with the County Commissioners when the new highway is built but we can’t wait 5 years.

There was much discussion on how this drain should be done.

Mr. Farney stated that this was not an answer to pre-existing drainage problems but what you also have to realize is that the amount of water the school is generating that even if we didn’t try to hold it at all it’s still restricted to the capacity of a 21-inch diameter pipe. So there’s only so much water that this side of the highway be it a school or whatever it would be is contributing to the overall problem that their experiencing. They need a bigger solution.


Don Williams:  The solution is to close this off altogether and bring it down to Vann and take it this other way and we are in discussions with INDOT about when they do a modification of the road to put a bigger structure in to do that, of course the County would have to pay the difference, so I think that is going to happen when they modify that road, but I’m more concerned about the here and now. I guess my concern is I don’t want any additional water coming over because you’ve got all you can handle right now.


Another gentleman asked if they put this in there and it doesn’t work, what would happen then?


Mr. Farny: Well, since we’ve just opted to take this parking lot to the east there’s no more water that’s coming your way than currently is. I’m not saying it’s going to be any better but there is nothing that we’re doing that is going to make it any worse.


Don Williams:  I think as far as I’m concerned let’s see the modified plan for approval. I’m not going to approve this plan. Now when you get this redone we’ll look at it. I think that’s viable, my main concern is no additional water, I’m just talking from my meeting these two might have a different story. But we don’t want any additional going to the west.


Mike: Is there any way you could vote on this today and have us submit this plan formally to you?


Nova Conner: I would rather not do that until Steve Sherwood looks at that.


Don Williams:  When can you bring it back? Well, we don’t have another meeting until January though, that’s the problem I think that’s what their saying. Because they are over there putting in pavement right now.


There was much discussion again about the water and how they were doing it the way of the new plan that wasn’t yet finished but what they had discussed and shown.


Don Williams:  I have one last question, Ok what’s going to make the water come this direction?


Mr. Farny: The way the parking lot is graded, you see these contour lines the water runs perpendicular.


One of the homeowners asked if he could make a suggestion and stated that if they are doing all that engineering on this property maybe they should take a look at our drainage system and see what it really needs. I mean we’re getting all their water.


Don Williams:  I don’t think we can force them to do that, it would be nice if we could. But I don’t think we can do that.


Phil Baxter: Any other questions? What is the will of the Board?


Don Williams: Okay, make sure I word this right. I will make a motion to approve alternative plan 1 with the stipulation that no additional water goes to the west, with that modification.


Nova Conner: How can you do that, how can you guarantee that?


Mr. Farny: I think the plan demonstrates that.


Don Williams:  We can make this contingent on seeing the plans and also they can go ahead and work and bring those new plans in January. Is that acceptable?


Mr. Farny: Well, we’ll probably make the changes and re-submit it as soon as tomorrow, but if your next opportunity is January, so be it.


Phil Baxter: We have a motion, do we have a second/


Nova Conner:  Second.


A motion was made and seconded to approve alternative plan #1 with the stipulation that no additional water goes to the west. Motion carried 3-0.







Jim Niemeyer: The next item is to vacation part of a public utility and drainage easement in Lot 43 Triple Crown Estates.


There was no one here to represent this.


Don Williams:  Move to table to January 9, 2008 meeting.


Nova Conner:  Second


Motion was made and seconded to table. Motion carried 3-0.




Kevin Gertison: Kevin Gertison from Carlton Construction.


Jim Niemeyer: This vacation is in a subdivision called Lynnwood Estates.


Don Williams:  I’ve already seen the plans, but my question is your putting in a plastic fence, now is this going to be a solid fence.


Mr. Gertison showed the Board a picture of the fence and stated that it will be off the ground approximately 6-inches.


Don Williams:  Okay, I just wanted to make sure that water could get through. Now the only other thing that we require is that if we need to get in there and it’s an emergency or something then that section of fence will have to come down. I make a motion to approve with the understanding that in case of an emergency it will have to come down.


Nova Conner:  Second.


Motion was made and seconded. Motion carried 3-0.


Jim Niemeyer: The next item is to discuss the meeting of December 26, 2007.


It was discussed that since there were no agenda items it should be cancelled.


Don Williams:  I move we cancel the December 26, 2007 meeting.


Nova Conner:  Second.


Jim Niemeyer: I would like to have permission to start on submitting proposals for work that has not been done for the past couple of years. We’ve just let them hang and I’d like to get started on those.


Don Williams:  Have they been approved by the Board or does it need to come to us?


Jim Niemeyer:  No, I think the next one I would like to start on is Springview Apartments where we had that legal drain created.


The Board all agreed.


Don Williams:  What you need to do for the Board, Jim, is set up and make a list of priorities.


Jim Niemeyer: That’s what I’m going to do, I’ll make you a list. Then we can start on some of those and I’d also like to start on some of those study projects we’ve completed this year and present those to you for approval because we really need to get on those.


Phil Baxter:  Do you know what we’re going to have to start the first of the year, money wise?


Jim Niemeyer: I’m going to try and finish that up this week and it’s going to take some real thought, we need some input.


Nova Conner: That’s for the Stormwater, you mean?


Phil Baxter: Storm Water or Drainage Board?


Nova Conner: He’s thinking Storm Water. When is out next StormWater Meeting?


David Zengler: We have one on Wednesday the 19th at 3:00 p.m.


Don Williams:  We haven’t approved his contract yet and we’ve got to do that before we can pay him.




Phil Baxter:  Okay, we’ve got claims in the amount of $758.61.


Don Williams:   Move we pay them.


Nova Conner:  Second.


Motion was made and seconded to pay claims. Motion carried 3-0.


There was also discussion on having a meeting to combine the Drainage Board and the StormWater Management. It was agreed on that this should be discussed at the StormWater Management on December 19, 2007.


Don Williams made motion to adjourn, seconded by Nova Conner. Motion passed 3-0.