JULY 11, 2007                                                 



The Warrick County Drainage Board met in regular session with President Phillip H. Baxter presiding, also in attendance were Don Williams, Secretary, James E. Niemeyer, Surveyor and David K. Zengler, Attorney for Board. Carl J. Conner was absent.

Sean Owen, Deputy Surveyor also in attendance.


Minutes were recorded and transcribed by Cheryl D. Embry.


Those present in the audience were Dan Granderson, Lowell Granderson, Nathan Mominee, Perry Jones, Jordan Aigner, Theodore E. Stahl, Justin Shofstall, Bob Krug and Jarrett Miles




Phil Baxter:  Warrick County Drainage Board Meeting of July 11, 2007 will now come to order. First on the agenda is the approval of minutes of June 13 and June 27 or 07.


Don Williams:  Mr. President, I move that we approve both sets of minutes. Seconded by Phil Baxter. Motion carried 2-0.




Phil Baxter:  Ok, Boesche Ditch.


Jim Niemeyer:  We have a request from Mr. Curt Stahl and others to vacate a portion of Boesche Ditch which is just west of Lynch Road and north of Hwy 62. I have three request forms here and here is an aerial photo showing the location of ditch and with the respective parcel numbers.


Phil Baxter:  Yes, I remember this, do you remember it, Don?


Don Williams:  I remember it, its not even a ditch not even a swale. I move to approve the request for vacation. Seconded by Phil Baxter. Motion carried 2-0.


Jim Niemeyer:  I just need two copies signed for our files.






Jim Niemeyer:  The next item for discussion is the Castle Orchard Estates Subdivision.


Nathan Mominee: My name is Nathan Mominee with Sitcom Incorporated representing Regal Homes on the project of Castle Orchard Estates requesting Drainage Board approval.


Don Williams:  Jim, do you have any input, we asked you to get an independent who did you contact and what are their credentials?


Jim Niemeyer:  I contacted Bernardin & Lochmueller and I was given the services of Henry Nodarse, Engineer and Surveyor. Henry reviewed all of the data that Nathan here submitted and I’ll let Nathan describe what took place.


Nathan Mominee:  I submitted a letter to the County Surveyor’s Office I can summarizer it here for you briefly. Mr. Nodarse gave 8 recommendations two of which pertain to the project in his three page letter and that was dated….I don’t have Mr. Nodarse’s letter but regardless…item number 6 in Mr. Nodarse’s letter basically concluded that there was no significant increase in the proposed storm water runoff in the watershed #1 which is the western watershed of the project which flows under Castle Garden Road that is also the same storm water that heads west down toward Bell Road. So he agrees with our calculations that there is no change in storm water runoff, no calculable change. That was for the western watershed that was item number 6, item #8 which is the last item there he recommends that the consultant, Sitcom should sub-divide the east watershed, watershed 2 into two areas with one area draining to the pond, existing pond and the other area draining un-detained to the exit flow point. This flow goes toward Eddy Lane to the north. Then the consultant should estimate the existing peak flow and the proposed peak flow at the exit flow point for a 5-year storm. I’ve done those calculations, I broke watershed 2 which is the eastern watershed into two sub-basins A & B, watershed 2A is the area that is contributing flow to the existing pond. The developed flow increases by 2 CFS. Area 2B which is the un-detained area increases develop by .68 CFS. I ran the detention calculations for the existing pond, its outfall structure is a 12-inch drop on the corrugated metal pipe with maximum outflow potential of 6 CFS. So what that means is that lake is releasing 6 cubic feet per second at it’s maximum release when it’s already stored 3 50-year developed storms. The most it can release is 6 CFS, when the un-developed 5-year flow which is what we would be held to is 7.19CFS, so it’s a restricted basin already by 1.2 CFS. So that mitigates the .7 CFS of un-detained water that is heading for the exit flow point on the north line which eventually crosses under the County road of Eddy Lane.


Don Williams:  All right, now I understand and I have talked to the County Engineer about several issues, but not this one. But somebody told me and it may have been him that the downstream culvert on Bell Road has already been repaired.  Jim, are you aware….


Jim Niemeyer:  It has been repaired.


Mr. Mominee: That’s a half a mile away from our project.


Don Williams:  I understand that, I just wanted to make sure because that was one of the recommendations that was the County’s responsibility and I though we had already done that.


Mr. Mominee:  Right, the other six recommendations really fall within the County’s jurisdiction and don’t fall onto the project area of Castle Orchard Estates. So I thought that was more County business than it was Regal Homes. So we’re happy that Mr. Nodarse agrees in his recommendation #6 and we’ve gone and fulfilled his recommendation of #8 of running through those calculations that shows that we have a restricted outfall of 6 CFS when by drainage ordinance we’re supposed to release at 7.19 CFS. So we actually have a better condition than is required.


Phil Baxter:  Okay, anyone have anything to say?


Dan Granderson: I have a question, Dan Granderson, 1266 Bell Road. Concerning the water that is going west and I understand then that the Engineer is saying that the culvert under Castle Garden Road will not be increased in size in order to handle the water that is coming from the east, is that correct?


Don Williams:  Are you talking about the one that is going under Bell Road there?


Dan Granderson:  No, I’m talking about the one that goes under Castle Garden.


Jim Niemeyer: We did not calculate that but we could, but right now we’re not….I think we’re in good shape as far as drainage is concerned because it flows under there it goes down along side the road there and then cuts across country.


Mr. Granderson: The concern for us over on Bell Road is that additional water would back up even more than it already does so that my question is, is that Engineer that made that calculation that the present culvert under Castle Garden Road is sufficient to handle the additional water?


Phil Baxter:  Dan, its here in his notes, the survey to check the invert elevation of that culvert so it will be checked. It is in the note right here.


Jim Niemeyer:  We’ll use our Highway Engineer to do that.


Mr. Mominee: The whole point of Mr. Nodarse reviewing my plan was to agree that we are not contributing anymore flow than what is already going to that pipe, that is what I’ve been saying this whole time and that is what Mr. Henry Nodarse of Bernardin & Lochmueller says that he agrees, that there is no more flow from the proposed development.


Don Williams:  I think we understand, please address your remarks to this Board instead of a personal issue. I think that what we’re trying to get at here it looks to me and I think that Mr. Granderson’s concerns are valid, I mean..but I don’t think that it’s a developer issue but it is something that the County needs to do is to check out that pipe and we’ll do that so if you would pass that onto our engineer, Mr. Bobby Howard and if it needs to be replaced let us know and in a Commissioner’s meeting we will direct him to do that.


Phil Baxter:  Also there is a note here to look at the culvert at Eddy Lane also and that will be looked at also.


Don Williams:  I think the culvert at Eddy Lane is pretty well clogged and stopped up, so that is something definitely that will be done.


Phil Baxter:  But the whole situation will be looked at and if there is any improvement that we can make there if it’s not right they will be made.


Don Williams:  There shouldn’t be any more water but apparently there are things that need to be repaired you know that is handling the present water that is what we’re hearing and what we’re seeing, so that issue will be taken care of. You can hold us accountable for another year and a half if we don’t do it for you. We’ll get it done.


Ted Stahl:  Ted Stahl is my name, I live at 1300 Castle Garden Road right directly across west of this development and my property is right in line with that lane or whatever they want to call it servicing theses potential lots and the road ditch in front of my property has got about that much sediment in it up on the drains. I have 232 feet across there minus two drains that are 30-foot long and I would like to ask for you as a drainage board if they could get the County to come out with that grade-all and scoop the bottom out of that 232-feet. And just lay it up on my property, I’ve got a tractor with a grader blade, I’ll level it out they won’t have to.


Don Williams:  Just lay it on your property?


Mr. Stahl:  Yeah, just lay it back on my property, I’ll be glad to level it out.


Phil Baxter:  We’ll do that and any other ditch that’s out there that needs taken care of will be.


Mr. Stahl: It’s just on the…in other words the road right of way ditch, but I’ve kept it cleaned out all these years but I’ve not been able to use a spade and a shovel right now. But if they would do that if the water would come across the road under a severe storm at least it wouldn’t come into my house or garage.


Mr. Williams stated that they would pass this information onto the Highway Department and will tell them that it is a priority.


Lowell Granderson: Lowell Granderson 1222 Bell Road. I do appreciate that you sent people out and looked at this and understand that you talked to Mr. Welte and you guys did some guys out from the County and cut the top of the culvert out. And this may not be the time to talk about that portion of it but if that doesn’t relieve some of that water, do we come back here or are you guys going to monitor it or what is the situation?


Don Williams:  You can call me personally cause if it’s a pipe sizing problem that’s why we have a highway department, we change a lot of pipes out every year for that very reason.


Mr. Granderson: And the other thing is for the past two meetings and this meeting, I would like to get a copy of these minutes, is that going to be available?


Don Williams:  Yes sir, the last two she has right there with her or here, I’ll tell you what I’ll give you mine.


Jim Niemeyer:  They are also on the County web site too.


Mr. Granderson: Okay, I’ve looked and I didn’t see it.


Don Williams:  You would have to go into the Surveyor for their webpage to get the minutes off of there.


Jim Niemeyer:  We upgrade those after they are approved, we are not allowed to do it otherwise until the Board approves them and then we put them on the website.


Mr. Granderson:  I know you fellows looked at it, there is a tremendous amount of water and if these guys are right in their calculations we won’t get any more than we’ve been getting. So, we can live with what we’ve got. But if the County would later come along and change that under Castle Garden Road that’s going to tell me that it wasn’t calculated properly and I don’t know what you do from there.


Don Williams:  Water can be calculated properly and the pipe still be undersized as far as the amount of drainage.


Mr. Granderson: But if you change that, that will mean more water faster through there…but anyway.


Don Williams:  Oh, I got you, I understand what you’re saying.


Mr. Granderson: We got what we got and we appreciate your time and thank you.


The Board thanked them as well.


Don Williams:  Mr. President, I move we approve Castle Orchard Estates drainage plan.

Mr. Baxter seconded the motion. Motion carried 2-0.


Mr. Niemeyer mistakenly called for I-164 Commercial Park and Jacobsville East was next on the agenda.



Perry Jones:  I’m Perry Jones, Surveyor with Bernardin Lochmueller & Associates requesting plan approval for Jacobsville East Subdivision.


Phil Baxter:  Is there any problem with this, Jim?


Jim Niemeyer:  No, it’s a very straight forward project, calculations are correct.


Don Williams:  I don’t have any questions.


Phil Baxter:  Is there anyone who has any comments on this? What are your wishes, Don?


Don Williams:  I move we approve Jacobsville East Subdivision drainage plan. Phil Baxter seconded the motion. Motion was carried 2-0.




Don Williams:  How long have you had these, Jim?


Jim Niemeyer:  A while, Okay the next item is I-164 Commercial Park #2.


Jordan Aigner:  Jordan Aigner with Morley & Associates requesting approval of drainage plans for the I-164 Commercial Park #2. I will be happy to answer any questions.


Don Williams:  Jim, do you have any comments?


Jim Niemeyer:  I have prepared a question and answer type of memo to Morley Engineering and Jordan replied to me and I would like for him to discuss those while I pull these out of the file.


Jordan Aigner:  Do the Commissioners have a copy of Jim’s letter?


Don Williams:  I have and I read both sides of the comments.


Mr. Aigner:  Jim has a couple of concerns out there on our site, I talked to our client and he had no problem trying to work with everybody at the County and the adjoiners. The first concern that Jim had was there was no development plan for a site which is not really uncommon for many sites. It is going to be a commercial site, so some type of commercial use. We do not know, we don’t have any perspective buyers at this time, but in regards to drainage, we did design for what we would call worse case scenario or commercial use so we did a 90% impervious and 10% pervious so it was very high impervious and I believe our runoff co-efficient was about .81 so very high. So we believe we did design for a high pavement area. #2 Jim was concerned about the basins being within the legal drain of Howard-Williams Ditch and I responded that we have allowed 20-feet of area to maintain the ditch, we’ve done this previously in Charlestown Square, I believe and it was approved.


Don Williams:  That’s not true, that is not true.


Mr. Aigner: Okay, I was informed by our office that….


Don Williams:  You were informed incorrectly. Charlestown was reduced to 30-feet on one side and 75-feet on the other side.


Mr. Aigner: Okay, well we’re not really asking to relax or reduce, we were just putting the basin within the legal drain but you would still have what we feel is ample room to maintain the ditch.


Don Williams:  That’s not going to happen at least not with me.


Mr. Aigner:  Is it…Commissioner Williams, is it your concern that we don’t have enough room?


Don Williams:  It is my concern that we have extensive drainage problems in that area and if you’re people that you represent would like to extend Howard-Williams Ditch to the river I probably wouldn’t have any problem with it. Is that a possibility?


Mr. Aigner: That would be kind of hard to do, I’d say.


Don Williams:  4 ½ million will get it there. 


Mr. Aigner:  I just want to make sure I understand your concerns. I know we have drainage concerns in that area, we’re not reducing the capacity of Howard-Williams Ditch at all, just the area to maintain that ditch.


Don Williams:   I know.


Mr. Aigner: So, I really don’t know if…I mean we’ve got no problem with allowing enough room if it needs to be 5 more feet or something like that, I mean….


Don Williams:  I’ll tell you what just to kind of relieve the tension right now, Mr. President, I was handed this and I noticed that you are also scrambling to look through it. I would move that we table this for 2 weeks so I can at least look through what the plan is, I think this is the only fair thing to do when we get them 5 minutes before a meeting or during a meeting, it doesn’t give us a fair shake. But let me look that over and I don’t have any problem with people developing in that area. My problem is we have extensive drainage problems in that area and I’m not going to do anything if there’s even a slimmest chance of making it any worse in that area.


Mr. Aigner:  Let me express that our client is open to…there are other things on this list to alleviate a lot of those things we didn’t get to. I’m okay with tabling it.


Don Williams:  And we’ll look all of those over and if its okay with Mr. Baxter, we’ll table for 2 weeks. Phil Baxter seconded the motion. Motion carried 2-0.




Jim Niemeyer:  The next item is the Ogle Commercial Park.


Don Williams:  Is there any reason why this Board couldn’t get these…especially this one sheet of plans ahead of time.


Jim Niemeyer:  Well, no not really.


Don Williams:  It’s not a problem with two of us looking at it, but when there’s three of us it makes it pretty tough.


Jim Niemeyer:  Here is the area that they are building on, this is all underground storage and I’m going to let you do that.


Justin Shofstall: Justin Shofstall with Easley Engineering, Design Engineer for this project. Just to give you a little bit of back ground on that. This was originally set up as far as the clients understanding that this was just a stand alone lot and as for development for the Dr. Ogle Dental Clinic. It wasn’t until we were pulling the permits that we found out that apparently back in 96 there was no legal subdivision done and the other lot that is involved on this subdivision is the BP and Subway at that intersection. As far as with the stormwater the plan that is before you is for the new construction for the dental clinic which is all the hard surfaces being channeled and captured by the underground storm water detention system and discharging out to the roadway at State Road 662 that also requires INDOT approval which at this point should be wrapping up because we had the bond permit being finalized…..


Don Williams:  Are you talking about the drainage approval? INDOT’s got to approve this?


Mr. Shofstall: As far as with INDOT drainage approval just to give Warrick County a refresher on that, is their drainage requirements are not as stringent as Warrick County’s. They still require a 50-year developed storm to be detained on site but they allow a 10-year release rate, Warrick County requires a 5-year release rate.


Don Williams:  When do you expect the INDOT reports to be back?


Mr. Shofstall: As far as right now with what we had my last conversation with Richard Meyer who is the District Supervisor for the Evansville District which we’re in, I expect to be back here probably within a weeks time.

Don Williams:  Mr. President, I want to hear what INDOT has to say to make sure they have their approval before we give them ours, so I would move we table this for 2 weeks.


Mr. Shofstall:  I would like to ask that as far as we….the primary plat will be before the Commissioners tonight as well, as far as if there would be any way…


Don Williams:  I mean I don’t have a problem with the drainage plan. I’ll withdraw my motion. Usually we wait on INDOT, do we not Jim?


Jim Niemeyer:  Yes, we do.


Don Williams:  You can’t do anything without their approval anyway.


Mr. Shofstall: Right and the part of the thing on that, its one of those things as far as with having multiple projects and doing a juggling act is whenever we found that we had to do the subdivision there’s a few things they asked us for as far as revisions on the traffic plan and their’s is just an all or nothing deal and with just a few items on the traffic deal they wanted to see changed and trying to take care of getting the subdivision filed at the same time in order to get before you tonight its just one of those things as far as shuffling what to what burner.


Don Williams:  So let me ask you this, are you adding a completely new underground structure or are you adding onto one that is already there? A completely new one, right?


Mr. Shofstall: As far as completely new storm water detention for this development>


Don Williams:  I did withdraw my motion, did I not?


Phil Baxter:  Yes, you did.


Jarrett Miles:  Afternoon Gentlemen, My name is Jarrett Miles, I live at 526 Middle Street in Newburgh and I own the property adjacent to the proposed property here at 5566 Stacer Road. I’ve had a problem with flooding ever since somebody developed that plat 2 and raised the elevation over there. I think this is an opportunity for us all to collectively to maybe solve some of that as it also floods the BP and the Subway sandwich shop. Last September I had 6-inches of water in my building and the sandwich shop and the BP Station both had to close for business. Because they are draining the water predominately to the Stacer Road Ditch and Stacer Road has to then circle it around and get it over on the ditch on 662, so my theory is this is a golden opportunity for us to drain the water off of that plot 2 directly into the ditch at 662 and I think we’ll all get some benefit from it. If they’ve got a plan going that is going to drain that, then it will be fine, but if it’s going to get paved and put some more water on us it’s just going to create more of a problem. I get flooded probably 3 or 4 times a year, I’ll get from one inch to 6 inches inside the building. Thank you.


Mr. Shofstall: I would like to point out as far as if you looked at the drainage plan that is being developed for the new construction on this subdivision that the entire system is draining out to 662 then east within the 662 development to Willow Pond Ditch which is quite a ways east of Mr. Miles property at Stacer Road. As far as any flooding problems within that intersection of Stacer that’s existing development that was put up back in 98-99 with their improvements. The drainage plans for that development was approved at that time for their own storm water detention, it sounds like if there’s any issues with flooding along Stacer Road then that would be something that would be within the County and the State right of way at that point. So, it’s not my understanding that with what we’re proposing, the construction that we’re proposing will be putting any water onto Stacer Road and 662 intersection.


Don Williams:  Jim?


Jim Niemeyer:  I have no comments?


Don Williams:  I mean is what he’s saying…..


Jim Niemeyer:  Oh, yes he’s right.


Don Williams:  And your recommendation?


Jim Niemeyer:  Well, if there’s a problem out there I think it should be looked at but I’m not sure that it falls within our jurisdiction.


Don Williams:  I know there are some drainage problems down Stacer Road cause I was out there the other day looking at a problem further down the road.


Jim Niemeyer:  The whole area needs attention.


Don Williams:  That was part of our study that we’re looking at rectifying anyway, Okay? So your recommendation is approval?


Jim Niemeyer:  Yes


Don Williams:  That’s all I have.


Phil Baxter:  Anyone else?


Bob Krug:  My name is Bob Krug, my brother-in-law B.R. Deters and I own the property immediately to the east and I guess I have a question. Since that property lays quite a bit low in elevation below 662 how is that water going to get from there to Willow Pond Ditch?


Mr. Shofstall: I believe if you look at the construction plans that were submitted as far as with what is being proposed and also look at what they have that all the water again for this entire development is going into the underground storm water detention system and then being discharged into State Road 662. All hard surface is being captured within the storm sewer systems being provided and discharged out.


Mr. Krug:  Okay, but the elevation of that is lower than……………..


Mr. Shofstall: As far as with the ditch elevations the flow line elevations in there, you have a top of bank elevation of approximately 390 ½ and 391 in this area, the flow line elevations are at 386.46, our property is as far as with where they’re building it up and then detaining all of our hard surface pavement here…..


Mr. Krug:  But how is it going to get from that point down to the Willow Pond?


Mr. Shofstall: Through the existing 30-inch corrugated metal pipe that is draining east.


Mr. Krug:  Except that corrugated pipe is at a pretty high elevation.


Mr. Shofstall: Well, again sir as far as with going through the approved drainage plans on this, our pipe discharges out at an elevation higher than the invert of the corrugated metal pipe and the corrugated metal pipe still has a positive flow to the east. So all of our water that we are holding on site in the underground detention system is being discharged through our system out into State Road right of way into the corrugated metal pipe.


Mr. Krug:  That 30-inch corrugated pipe is pretty well enclosed across our property.


Mr. Shofstall:  Yes, along the frontage.


Mr. Krug:  But it does open up in Epworth Village, there are a couple of beehives in Epworth Village and they’ve had some very severe flooding problems in that area.


Mr. Shofstall: Well, as far as I do know that with State Road 662 improvements when they’ve done the widening here in the past few years got a lot of these issues along the highway road of frontages were supposed to be improved with that project and again that’s part of the reason with having the storm water detention on there that we will not be discharging any water more than what is required.


Mr. Krug:  Okay I don’t know about the improvements that were made, I just know the condition as it was before 662 was widened.


Phil Baxter:  Anyone else?


Don Williams:  Move to approve, seconded by Phil Baxter. Motion carried 2-0.

Nance Commercial Subdivision, move to table. Seconded by Mr. Baxter. Motion carried 2.0.





Phil Baxter:  Claims in the amount of $40,394.20.


Don Williams:  Mr. President, I make a motion we pay the claims. Seconded by Phil Baxter. Motion carried 2-0.




Don Williams:  Before we close, where are we at on some of our projects like the reversal of Howard-Williams Ditch and taking it to the river and the bonding?


David Zengler: I think, Jim….let me report back in two weeks on that, I mean I can tell you where I think we are but let me research it.


Don Williams:  That will be fine, just check and make sure because we’re determined to get rid of all that water down in the southwestern part of the County to the river.


David Zengler: Jim, He’s talking about going ahead with Howard-Williams Ditch reversal. So, I’ll talk with you later in the week. As it will take a bond to do that.


Don Williams:  Mr. President, if you don’t have anything I move we adjourn. Seconded by Phil Baxter. Motion carried 2-0.