SEPTEMBER 26, 2007
The Warrick County Drainage Board met in regular session with President Philip H. Baxter presiding, in attendance were Nova Conner, Vice-President; Don Williams, Secretary; Jim Niemeyer, Surveyor and David K. Zengler, Attorney for the Board.
Minutes were recorded and transcribed by Cheryl D. Embry.
Those present in the audience were Cathy Hinkle, Jim Morley, Jr, Tom Koetting, Maggie Koetting John Wasson and Sherri Rector.
APPROVAL OF MINUTES:
Phil Baxter: First thing on the agenda is the approval of minutes from September 12, 2007. Any questions on the minutes?
Don Williams:† Move to approve.
Nova Conner:† Second
Motion was made and seconded to approve minutes. Motion passed 3-0.
Jim Niemeyer: The next item is Arbor Pointe concerning a pipe change.
Jim Morley, Jr.:† Jim Morley, Jr. with Morley & Associates project engineer.
Jim Niemeyer: Jim would you explain to the Board what your plans are for this.
Mr. Morley: Out at Arbor Pointe we have two retention basins that are in the middle of the subdivision so to speak and the original design allotted for the emergency overflow to cross the surface of the ground across the street and then out into the ditch and the developer would like to pipe those emergency overflows. The basin themselves have about 4-feet of storage and we use about a foot of it. If you remember right they had to dig all the extra basins out there for fill dirt so the retention system here is tremendously oversized. So the emergency overflows in reality, I donít know if they will ever get used but we wanted to have something and so we want to switch it from being an underground pipe versus going over the top of the road. So we submitted the calculations showing the 24-inch pipe as a discharge pipe for the emergency overflow which would be set above the, I think 100-year storage elevation so water would never ever get to them until after we had already stored the 100. Then they would be piped out to the ditch that runs along the east property line which is I think is Sprengel Ditch. In the end it probably results in a better product on the off chance that water would ever get up there, now that weíre going underneath the road instead of over the top of the road. I spoke with Bobby Howard and he said he would support the change. It happens on two basins.
Phil Baxter:† Any questions from the Board?
Jim Niemeyer:† Iíve included all correspondence at Jimís request there and also a summery of my Chief Engineers findings.
Don Williams:† Does Bobby think that the 24-inch is fine?
Jim Niemeyer:† Yes
Don Williams:† I move to approve.
Nova Conner: Second
Motion was made and seconded to approve pipe change. Motion passes 3-0.
DITNEY DEVELOPMENT SUBDIVISION:
Jim Niemeyer:† The next item is Ditney Development Subdivision.
John Wasson:† Hello, Iím John Wasson and Iíd like to change the drainage that was approved in the original plat of the subdivision because of circumstances of I69 taking my right of way modifying the point of discharge where the water leaving the subdivision goes out onto the right of way of I-64 and in constructing I-69 they will be modifying that off ramp, at this time they havenít taken my right of way fence there. They havenít taken my right of way fence today but I got a letter just today saying they have already enlarged their taking from just to the Noble Chapel Road plus a cul-de-sac. They are going to take part of that gas station property as a cul-de-sac as well, so they are really not through taking this property. I mean its already condemned so to speak to living on the end of a cul-de-sac but the history of that pipe and I donít want to go on and on about it. But it was there, the 30-inch pipe pre-dates any other part of this subdivision, it drained at one time the entire subdivision of 22 acres and then as the state progressed with I-64 and they took more and more of this property reducing it to about 19 acres. I filed a subdivision plan which then the Engineers became involved saying there was a storm retention facility needed which I constructed and I re-graded the property, its all re-graded at this point and satellite photos show that the water runs to that dry water retention structure and virtually no water is using that 30-inch pipe. So I think and the reason I am asking for this modification is I think itís frivolous to attach a 30-inch pipe with no water to a water retention pond. There is no water coming out of the 30-inch pipe, its virtually silted shut. Mr. Niemeyer and I inspected the end of that pipe, I have a picture of it here today, itís not handling any water and so to connect a pipe that isnít handling any water to a dry retention structure that isnít handling any water and then to go out on a right of way, the same right of way no matter where the water left this subdivision it would enter into this right of way and go out the same pipe of the states. There is really no change, itís just an expense for me and I consider it a useless expense to connect these two pipes or these two structures together at this point. Especially in light of I-69 taking the subdivision as a utility.
Nova Conner:† Jim, I was thinking you said they were not going to take that?
Jim Niemeyer:† Thatís what I heard this morning.
Nova Conner: That they were not going to take the property there?
Mr. Wasson: That is correct, they are not going to take the end of this pipe and they are not going to take the pumping station or the fence row that is the south edge of this property. But they are taking property in Gibson County which is the access to this property, so that it no longer has any function as a truck stop orÖ.you know there is really no viability to it, people would have to come past the Warrick County Economic Area and travel about 5 miles to get back to this place now which currently enjoys perfect access. So Iíve completed the paving, I know this is a different subject, this is a drainage issue, but Iíve done what I can to complete this subdivision as my requirements to the county but I donít feel like spending any more money on what is a very long drawn out process of this place coming back to economic viability. Itís been taken by the state, this subdivision has been closed off including an additional taking today or notice of taking today a design modification to take a larger portion of Nobel Chapel Road and my property in Gibson County which takes the access, it no longer has any access to the interstate.
Don Williams:† So is this plan an accurate plan?
Mr. Wasson: I believe thatís the new secondÖ.
Mr. Niemeyer: That was August 14
Nova Conner: The one that we have is the other.
Mr. Wasson: It shows a change in paving of course to create a permanent cul-de-sac where there was a temporary one before and it removes that pipe and that is the change in the plans, the pipe connecting these two pipes. There isnít any water leaving this area that silted up pipe shows that it is no utilization really its not doing much anyway. So I donít want to tie it to the water retention structure which is working fine as designed.
Don Williams:† I asked the Surveyor if this is ready to goÖ..yes, Sherri.
Sherri Rector: I just wanted you to know that he does have an amended secondary plat filed and he also has amended street construction plans and a street acceptance request that will coming at your next meeting on this change. This is supposed to be his final plan.
Nova Conner:† So the reasonÖsee if I understand this correctly. The reason youíre changing itÖwhat exactly is the reason youíre changing it because of what they are doing and taking is affecting it or was it just never needed or why was it required at first?
Mr. Wasson: I think at first and I donít wantÖ.the pipe was already in place so they made a current plan utilizing part of an existing infrastructure. I donít think they understood or seriously looked at how much water wouldnít be going through that pipe when I got through grading the property. I graded the property and it now goes to the water retention structure. It doesnít go to that 30-inch pipe as it once did.
(There was much more discussion about I-69 and how much more
†land they will probably take.)
Don Williams:† Youíre talking about the east side of lot 3 there where the drainage easement is?
Mr. Wasson: Yes.
Jim Niemeyer: John, I think probably what the Board would like to see is that everything that was approved previously with all the drainage calculations are basically correct and that what you are doing will not affect that.
Mr. Wasson: I donít think so, no. There is no real change in the amount of water leaving this property and since there isnít any rate of flow out of that 30-inch pipe, I donít see that there is to be any gain to run it overÖ.there isnít anything to retain. I would be building basically a dry pipe.
Jim Niemeyer:† Well, this is what Iíve learned since Iíve been here that any changes have to be approved by the Board. But if you can demonstrate that the changes that you are making or not making are going to affect that overall one way or another they need to know that. If what you are saying wonít drastically affect the drainage as approved originally, I think I would recommend that you proceed.
Nova Conner: So Jim youíre saying that you recommend that now?
Jim Niemeyer:† Yeah, I think heís got everything as far as he can go. What are your prospects for long term development there?
Mr. Wasson: Itís a valuable piece of property, it has visibility
but that is all it has left the access of it is several miles back to Hwy 68
and it will be some time before threes a betterÖother than a long access road
to get back to this property. I plan on removing structures left both in
Jim Niemeyer:† So the street and the cul-de-sac are just going to be there, just going to sit there?
Mr. Wasson: Well there is a business there, itís a Kraft food frozen food storage and I suppose they intend to remain active as it is a private delivery route. Perhaps I can attract another business like that.
Nova Conner:† But you donít feel like anything that you are going to build is going to affect that in any way that you would needÖÖ.
David K. Zengler:† Forgive me, if that pipe were constructed it would actually possibly get in the way of a building if lets say a motel wanted to locate on that lot near the retention structure. The first thing they might have to do is remove that pipe in order to have a footer for their building as it was shown on the original plat. That pipe went at an angle from the 30-inch pipe to the water retention structure.
Don Williams:† Whatís the elevation, is it going to flow to it naturally, is that what youíre saying? If there is any drainage?
Mr. Wasson: I donít have an elevation figure in my mind but the ditch that both of those structures the 30-inch pipe and the water retention structure it flows both east and west and I donít mean to be vague but it is nearly flat. Some of the water goes to the west and goes under Hwy 57 and some of it goes just past the water retention structure and under I-64.
Jim Niemeyer: Were you out there this morning?
Don Williams:† I was going to say nothing has drained anywhere for 3 months (laughter)
Don was looking at the aerials and finding where the pipe is located.
What is your recommendation there, Mr. Surveyor?
Jim Niemeyer:† The pipe is not doing any good. I was down there and looked at the pipe and looked at all of it and what Mr. Wasson says is true.
Don Williams:† So what is your recommendation that we approve the plans as submitted?
Jim Niemeyer:† Yes
Nova Conner: Jim, if you feel good about itÖ.
Jim Niemeyer:† I do
Phil Baxter:† What is the wishes of the Board?
Don Williams:† I move we approve on the recommendation of the Surveyor.
Nova Conner:† Second.
Motion was made and seconded to approve. Motion carried 3-0.
ROLLING HILLS MANOR NO.2 SECTION B:
Cathy Hinkle: My name is Cathy Hinkle and we are petitioning to vacate the western ten (10) feet of a portion of a twenty foot public easement in order to proceed to build a pool house and drainage.
Sherri Rector: Iím her next door neighbor and I came up here to help her. I can tell you that it doesnít drain through there but there will still be 10-foot of drainage easement left with this vacated.
Don Williams:† Have all the utilities that will be involved signed off?
Ms. Hinkle: Yes, they have all signed off and I have letters and copies of all that.
Sherri:† She just needs from you permission to proceed to your next meeting to vacate and it is listed on your agenda.
Phil Baxter:† Any other questions?
It was asked what her address was and Ms. Hinkle answered
that it was
Phil Baxter: What is the decision of the Board?
Don Williams:† Move to approve.
Nova Conner:† Second.
Motion was made and seconded to approve. Motion carried 3-0.
STATE ROAD 62 SEWER PROJECT:
John Kipling:† John
Kipling with Morley & Associates. I wanted to discuss the State Road 62
Sewer Project outside of
Don Williams:† Are you talking about the sewer project?
Mr. Kipling:† Yes sir, Sanitary Sewer Project, yes. I just havenít heard anything from the Warrick County Drainage Board and I thought I would come before you guys and kind of answer any questions if there were any and make sure that there were no issues and no objections to being in the legal drain with this project. And then find out how much inside this legal drain we could be with the sewer.
Jim Niemeyer: John, are you talking about temporary easements?
John: Well, the sewer itself would be in a permanent easement and we are right now are trying to get 30-feet total 15 on either side of the sewer so the center line of the sewer itself is at one location and then thereís fifteen (15) feet where there would be a permanent easement so we could cut the trench to install the pipe. But the temporary easements would be away from the ditch. It will start at the top of bank we do need to use every square foot we can possible to get the sewer in. But the intent right now where we would lay the dirt material temporarily on the ditch side while their cutting the trench get the pipe installed.
Don Williams:† How deep will the pipe be?
John: Itís average is going to be around fifteen (15) feet deep. So there is quite a bit of material that is going to have to come out but that is why we were getting a hundred (100) feet total for construction is so that he has got roughly thirty-five (35) feet from his easement to top of bank, right now itís designed for spoil and heís got the other side of his easement for spoil and for moving manpower materials and other supplies for installation of the sewer. Once the sewer was installed the all the spoil will be put back in the trench. But the bank wouldnít be disturbed is what I was trying to get to that once the spoil was put back in the trench the sewers buried then there shouldnít be a need for that temporary easement anymore in the legal drain and that will be temporary. But the thirty (30) foot utility easement would remain and that was the way we designed it was to be in the outer half of that legal drain.
Don Williams:† The outer half of the seventy-five (75) feet on one side, so which side do you want it on the north or the south?
John:† Well, weíre going to stay on the north side just because there no objects weíre going to have to move as often as on the south side. On the south side there are homes already located there, some of the tributaries there seems to be more of an abundance on the south side which caused the expenses to be a little bit higher.
Don Williams:† What is the flow of depth?
John: The ditches averages about twelve (12) thatís why weíre at fifteen (15) so that when we do cross perpendicular to the ditch we have depth of cover.
Jim Niemeyer:† Thereís four (4) crossings, John?
John: Thereís one crossing on Cypress Creek and there is three (3) crossings with the Carter-Traylor Ditch. But I guess what I just needed to know was a kind of positive feed-back from the Drainage Board being within the legal drain and then Iíve got the property owners requesting a design change that they want to be closer to the top of bank.
Don Williams:† How close are they wanting?
John: Well, what Iím hearing is they want the center line of the pipe to be within thirty (30) feet of top of bank, that would put my easement fifteen (15) feet or my trench fifteen (15) feet off top of bank, permanently.
Don Williams:† Thatís too close. I think that you have to look at whatís going to happen in years to come that ditch could be widenedÖÖI mean typically we donít let much of anything get within thirty (30) feet of the ditch. Thatís pretty well been ourÖÖ.for as long as Iíve been on the Board. I donít know how the other two feel about it. We definitely want to see the sewer go in and go forward thatís not a problem but we do have to protect the future use of that ditch and the future needs and Iím sure that itís going to have to be deepened and widened and if youíre within fifteen (15) feet and something is already twelve (12) and you know maybe not in ten (10) years but twenty (20) twenty-five (25) or thirty (30) years from now it could be right in the way soÖÖIíd rather see it out at least to thirty (30) feet from the top of the bank. Because the top of the bank is going to change too, it could end up twenty-five(25) years from now within ten (10) feet of the top of the ditch.
John: Yes, cause your legal drain is attached to top of bank and that top of bank could be anywhere.
Nova Conner:† Jim, what are youíre thoughts on that?
Jim Niemeyer:† I think Donís right it will vary as time goes by, the stream meanders and it will wobble.
Nova Conner: Is that something that you want to look at before weÖ..
Jim Niemeyer:† Well, heísÖ.yeah I can do that because they are not ready to start yet anyway and I can do that.
John: I guess weíll still have to come together with a Hold Harmless Agreement.
Don Williams:† Youíll need to make a formal request. I would make it thirty (30) feet from the top of the bank, the property owners might not appreciate that but tell them thirty (30) years from now it will probably only be ten (10) feet.
John:† Okay that is what I was looking for was a dimension.
Don Williams:† If thatís okay with Nova and Phil, they may want it other than thirty (30).
Phil Baxter: I think we need to stay with thirty (30).
Nova Conner:† I do too.
Don Williams:† I think youíve got a consensus if thatís what youíre looking for.
John : Yes and thank you.
Phil Baxter: Okay, weíve got claims in the amount of $3,777.07.
Don Williams:† Move to pay
Nova Conner:† Second.
Motion was made and seconded to pay claims. Motion carried 3-0.
EDWARDS DITCH EXTENSION & SCHNUCKS AGREEMENT:
Phil Baxter:† David, did you have something?
David K. Zengler:† Yes, as youíre probably aware you signed the agreement with S & M Properties which is Schnucks. In order to get my time started I show the petition for the Edwards Drain Extension filed as of September 21, 2007 with the Surveyor. We need to set a Public Hearing on that and the time limits are thirty (30) days and that is why I need to get this filed and by filing it when I did we can have the Public Hearing on October 24, 2007 at 3:00 which is your regular meeting. Schnucks has obviously signed and since they have signed I think it will give you the legal authority to proceed. I am talking and had a conversation with one of the other land owners, the apartments and they may file a petition too. My suggestion and comment to them was ďit would be great if you would go ahead and file the petition as we would like to have more people on the petition.Ē However, by S & MíS signing that took care of it. It meets the legal requirements.
Don Williams:† Weíre
looking at the ditch behind Schnucks and also going up to
David Zengler: Yes
Jim Niemeyer:† On the east side of the apartments.
David Zengler: So there would have to be a notice I prepared will have to be published and we notify the people that are involved. There areÖ.and I talked with Jimís Office cause Iím sure they will probably hear from these couple of residential land owners that this will effect.
Jim Niemeyer: Those are the two that didnít sign in the original application.
Phil Baxter:† So youíre talking October 24, 2007.
David Zengler: Iím talking about our meeting set for October 24, 2007 at 3:00 p.m.
Phil Baxter:† Sounds good, David.
David Zengler: I think we canÖ.yes We can start in my estimation you will have to do aÖÖJim will have to prepare a rate schedule and so on but my recommendation will be to you that you can proceed after that date. I guess assuming you have funds to do it. That is proceeding so I guess I would ask that the Board although legally it is really up to Jim but I would like consensus from the Board that that date is okay for us to publish.
Don Williams:† Does it need to be any earlier than that?
David:† It canít be any earlier. You have to give thirty (30) days notice.
Phil Baxter:† Anything else? Does anyone have anything?
Tom Koetting:† My name
is Tom Koetting and I live in
Don Williams:† Theyíve already had the drainageÖ.weíve already acted on that.
Jim Niemeyer: What heís talking about is Edwards Ditch crossing on the west side on Libbert?
Mr. Koetting: I didnít know what the name of that was, Edwards, is that it?
Don Williams:† You have plans to clean that anyway donít you? He has plans to clean that by the way, soÖ..
Mr. Koetting: Some large drainage ditches on both sides of Hwy 66 that funnel into a plug, I guess called Edwards Ditch and we need to see what can be done to expand the capacity of that drainage system.
Don Williams:† Itís a legal drain, this is the right place.
Jim Niemeyer: We will do that as soon asÖÖ.weíve had a number of complaints out there and I know about flooding thatís happened at least twice and the ditch is pretty much overgrown for all the way to the end of our jurisdiction which is in Vanderburgh County. There is about 61,000 feet and if I had the money I would do it. I asked County Council for enough money to do that and I didnít receive it. I didnít expect I would but I wanted to get it in the minutes that we are concerned about it. We will work at it as we have funds available.
Mr. Koetting: Is there anything that we can do to help make funds available? We have a problem and we have to find a cure.
Don Williams:† Iíd say call the County Council.
Jim Niemeyer:† My feelings are we need support when County Council Meetings come up you need to demonstrate to these people and their job is to conserve money in the County but on the other hand you just cannot say no forever. If that means floating a drainage bond, so be it.
Mr. Koetting: Let me inquire also whether or not TIF financing would be appropriate or available to assist in that.
Don Williams: It could be since it is in a TIF area that could be a possibility of funding, another possibility if our new Storm Water Department, but since itís a legal drain issue this is the place that it should come out of. This Boardís whole responsibility is those legal ditches, the ones that have names.
Mr. Koetting:† Well, like I said this is an educational thing for me just to see..okay where do we start, weíve got a number of businesses and other residents who are concerned about it and so we need to see where we can assist you in securing funds.
Phil Baxter:† Since that flooding last fall sir, there has been some work down there, the bridge was cleaned under Libbert, that culvert was cleaned and there has been some other work down there and we have been talking about doing some more. But we havenít forgotten you.
Mr. Koetting: Well, I was going to say you can see the nice clean ditch under Libbert but it looks like itís a funnel where there is no where for it to go.
Don Williams:† Whatís that run about 275 linear foot to clean that? 375 rather?
Jim Niemeyer:† It depends on how much brush there is to grind it would probably cost close to $4.00 to $5.00 a foot with the price of diesel cause they use quite a bit of diesel.
Don Williams:† †I know at $3.75 a linear foot so I figure itís over $228,000.00, it takes a lot to clean a ditch apparently.
Mr. Koetting: That Edwards Ditch runs how far?
Jim Niemeyer:† 61,000 feet. It goes from there up to the west side of Chandler where the gun club is crossed the road and then it goes into a ditch called Weisheimer, its all the same and it goes into Pigeon Creek which runs all the way up into Gibson County and down into Vanderburgh County.
Don Williams: †Now
thatís where the real bottleneck for the water in
Mr. Koetting: Well, like I said weíll have more people here next time just to express our concern.
Don Williams:† Our ditches flow the wrong way, thatís the problem, Mr. Koetting. I mean if youíre looking at area youíre living at, youíre what 1.6 miles from the river and that water has to flow 26 miles to get there.
Jim Niemeyer: We have a program study that was completed a few years ago to reverse the flow of water south in a southerly direction it would be about a mile and a half or so. They estimated the cost for that is about 5 million dollars. We will need to float a drainage bond to do that and then also weíre looking at any possible alternatives such as regional detention basins even to the point of drilling an eighteen (18) to twenty (20) foot hole down to the Ohio River in similar manner that they did in Evansville on Weinbach Avenue.
Mr. Koetting: Youíre saying to get it directly south to the river, the magnitude is 5 million dollars. Is there a tax district or bonding authority that could participate in that?
Don Williams:† This Board has discussed that issue many times and I think this Board is looking at doing that very thing, getting the County Council to approve the bond would be the situation and when that happens perhaps Jim should give you and all those other people in develops out there a little call as we may need some help that night.
Mr. Koetting: Well, weíre prepared to help you.
Don Williams:† †They need to get some of the out rage that this Board has had when weíve had those rains there.
Mr. Koetting: We want to do this in a positive constructive manner, weíre not here just to jump up and down and make noise, but to see if we can be of any assistance.
Don Williams: And we are going to need community support to get it done.
Phil Baxter:† Anything else? Looking for a motion to adjourn.
Don Williams:† Motion to adjourn
Nova Conner:† Second.
Motion was made and seconded to adjourn. Motion carried 3-0.