February 20, 2008



The Warrick County Drainage Board met in regular session with President Phillip H. Baxter presiding, also in attendance were Nova Conner, Vice-President; Don Williams, Secretary; James E. Niemeyer, Surveyor and David K. Zengler, Attorney for Board.

Minutes were recorded and transcribed by Cheryl D. Embry.


Those present in the audience were Geralyn Bradley, Bradley Millis, Stuart Janney, Doug McClure, Sharon McClure and Cathy Scheller.




Phil Baxter: Warrick County Drainage Board February 13, 2008 will now resume, we recessed last week, we are resuming on February 20, 2008. First on the agenda is the approval of minutes from February 13, 2008.


Don Williams:Move to approve.


Nova Conner:Second.


Motion was made and seconded to approve minutes. Motion carried 3-0.






Jim Niemeyer: Piper Ridge Subdivision is next, would you please state your name and address please.


Glenn Merritt: Glenn Merritt Iím with Cash, Wagner and Associates we are located at 414 Citadel Circle, Evansville, Indiana 47715. I have an exhibit for the Board to take a look at it is an overview of where the subdivision is at and everything in the surrounding area.


Jim Niemeyer: We are discussion how you were going to enter the subdivision.


Mr. Merritt: It has access through Lake Villa Estates on Pfafflin Lake Blvd. that right of way extends to our south property line. We are extending that road 150 to 200 feet off site to our property and then cul-de-sac to the east.


Don Williams:Has Mr. Sherwood looked at these?


Jim Niemeyer:Yes

Phil Baxter: Is there any problems with the drainage plans, Jim?


Jim Niemeyer: There are a few questions, one of them is what is the amount of runoff after its been developed?


Mr. Merritt: The developed flow is 9.9CFS and the undeveloped flow for our site is 6.5 so weíve got roughly over all the total site we are increasing it by 3.4CFS.


Jim Niemeyer: Do you have any detention proposed?


Mr. Merritt: No, we are proposing no retention for this site. If you look at the aerial photo I put together due to the close proximity of the Ohio River to this site and if you look at the other subdivision out here in this area it is consistent with the other subdivisions that have been developed. Rosewood just to the north is the most recent one thatI have been associated with or known of and they actually built a retention basin and have come back after they built it and filled it back in. So it has no retention, Cliftmere Subdivision just to the east off of State Road 66 has no retention, Shady Wood Subdivision, Augusta Hills, Riceland Manor, Forrest Part and I can go on and on pretty much 80% of the subdivisions that you see on that aerial photo there, there is no retention. If you notice the unnamed tributary thatís just north of our property, that is basically where all that water from our site goes to and those other subdivisions that I mentioned, they all drain basically to that tributary and it is a fairly large tributary that travels south to the Ohio River. It runsÖand there is an adjacent property owner just to the north of our site that is another 3 acre parcel and we are discharging through that property to get to that tributary. But all of our water goes there.


Nova Conner:Jim, did you have other questions, you said you had a couple?


Jim Niemeyer: That was the most important one I felt and we have had requests to forgo retention but we have a County Ordinance though that requires that we have retention and I forget when it was done in 2000 or 2003 so what Iím saying is the subdivision to the north for example does not have any.


Don Williams:How old is that subdivision, was it before our ordinance?


Jim Niemeyer: It may have been.


Mr. Merritt: Rosewood would not have been, I mean it was approved in 2000 originally and they approved it with a basin and have come back, I donít know when they came back and got it removed but I was out there when I did the original topo for our site and there is no basin back there, itís completely filled in.


Nova Conner: They got approval for that?


Mr. Merritt: Iím assuming, I didnít have any dealings with that subdivision for that particular approval. I donít know if the developer did that on his own but like I said there used to be a basin there.


Don Williams:That was before our time.


Nova Conner:David, do you know in terms of our ordinance.


David: Well, the ordinance does require retainage, the present ordinance does. When it was passed was before my time.


Les Shively: Could I speak to that? My name is Les Shively representing the developer. The ordinance in question is a free standing ordinance not getting into the proper adoption aspects of it but when the County Commissioners adopted the latest version of the subdivision control ordinance within that ordinance is a drainage requirement section which supersedes, takes the place of whatever earlier ordinances there were on drainage and there is no retention basin requirement in Section 7 of the County Subdivision Control Ordinance. There is only the fact that you have to have a design that is a 50 year storm and undeveloped 5. So if you meet those criteria you are complying with the ordinance that is now in effect which controls the surface water issues and that supersedes whatever was in place in 2003.


Nova Conner: Jim, is thatÖ..what you know?


Don Williams:That is what the ordinance reads.


Nova Conner: What the ordinance reads in terms of the 50 years, okay. Did you say that Steve Sherwood had a chance to review this and he felt comfortable in terms ofÖÖ..


Jim Niemeyer: Thatís one point we discussed though was the retention and he felt like that we needed to bring this up and we donít want to have any future situations. Weíve had then in the past you know and where do you stop at one cubic foot or Ĺ a cubic foot?


Mr. Merritt: I think each individual site has to be looked at on a case by case basis. I mean typically subdivisions, we do have retention basins but due to the location of this subdivision say its within a quarter mile of the Ohio River and every other subdivision thatís out here you know there is no retention for those just the small nature of our project say weíre increasing the flow you know slightly. Weíre going from 6 Ĺ to 9 Ĺ roughly and itís a fairly minor increase. We have one adjoiner like I said that weíre discharging water to, the majority of the site weíre trying to leave undisturbed, as it is wooded. The entire property is wooded, the road is on the south property line and its set up for walk-outs to the north down the slope and the intent is to leave a wooded barrier along the north property line and allow the additional increased impervious surface to run off sheet flow undetained where weíre not creating a concentrated discharge to create any problems for the adjoiners. The one adjoiner Miss Jennifer Shank, I do believe sheís here. We set down with her 2-3 weeks ago to address any concerns and show her what we were proposing and to see if she had any problems and I think we addressed any concerns that she may have had for discharging the water that weíre proposing onto her site. That is basically my argument is that the small nature of our subdivision and the proximately of the Ohio River and other subdivisions in this area itís consistent with what has been done in the past.


Nova Conner: Jim, what is Steveís concern in regards to the ordinance or did he feel like in terms of actual water?


Jim Niemeyer: Well, more along with the lines of the ordinance. But itís like heís saying and what weíre saying somewhere weíll need to be sure that we donít do that.


Don Williams:Donít do what?


Jim Niemeyer: Exceed, I mean allow water to go by un-retained.


Mr. Merritt: Along those lines I mean if like I said the majority of the subdivisions that I designed you know there are retention basins and itís just basically on a case by case basis. If we were discharging into a residential subdivision where it was going to create issues for the adjacent property owners, then there is no way that I would propose to do something like this. There is a pole barn on the adjoining property and that is all that is on the property to date and from an engineering standpoint I donít feel that that additional water that weíre going to be discharging onto Miss Shank is going to create any issues for her by the increased impervious surface.


Don Williams:Is Miss Shank here? Iíd like to hear from you, Miss Shank, if you would come up and give us your name and address for the record.


Jennifer Shank: Iím Jennifer Shank and I live at 5922 Fiesta Drive. My property is directly south of the property that Kathy has, we purchased those properties at the same time, the only concern I have at all with this project is like Mr. Scott said the biggest runoff or drainage that he has is coming down south of my pole barn but down the hill towards me and that is the only concern I have. He feels confident that that water is going to come down and turn there is sort of a natural drainage there and soÖ.


Don Williams:Have Steve look at that particular issue.


Ms. Shank: I think he has a paper that shows where my pole barn is and where my pole barn is there isÖ.thatís probably the biggest drainage back there the rest of the drainage is, I donít think will create anything for me.


There is discussion between the Board and some gentleman on the unnamed tributary that carries the water.


Ms. Shank: It carries water now and I donít have any problem currently, so I just want to make sure that I donít have a problem in the future and he feels confident that I wonít, but I just want to be completely assured of that. So otherwise I think they have about three areas where drain-off or runoff is going to come from and I donít think any of the others will create a problem for me and itís real close from where theyíre going toÖI donít know what kind of map that isÖbut from where theyíre going to drain that biggest drainage, where our pole barn sits within about 15-feet of that to the east and to the south that is a natural drainage that goes directly into that unnamed tributary or whatever it is, unnamed ditch which carries a ton of water, I mean it has a huge capacity to carry water. I donít understand anything about going from 6 Ĺ to 9 Ĺ that doesnít mean anything to me so I donít know how to evaluate that. But it does carry a lot of water and actually if the Army Corp of Engineers would come in and clean all of the downed trees out of it it could carry that water better. But it carries a lot, I never have back up, Iíve lived on that ditch for 18 years, so I just donít have any concern with any of the runoff for me with the exception that I just want to make sure it doesnít come into my pole barn and I will state that that area that he talked about on Rosewood, that was a retention pond now does have a house on it that was probably within the last 3 years that they filled that in and that is another one. That retention pond sat right at the corner of Esche Ditch and my unnamed ditch, so there are two with 200 or 100 yards of where they are looking at, two giant ditches that can carry water, so I think it will run away pretty fast.


Don Williams: I would like to have our licensed Surveyor give us a written report on that because I want to make sure it doesnít affect your pole barn, so Iíll make a motion to we table until March 12th and have our licensed surveyor look at that situation to see whether we need retention or not.


Someone from the audience asked a question that was inaudible.


Don answered that it was up to the president as he didnít need a second on his motion right at the moment.


Ms. Shank: Before I sit down could I just say that Iím more than willing if there is any other things that they need to do drainage wise behind my barn, Iím ok with that, if they needÖ..I mean I think heísÖÖthe information that they have given me sounds like they have done everything they need to do, but then again I donít know anything about engineering or runoff and all that so if there is something else that would make it work if they did one more thing on the drainage then Iím ok with that because I donít think itís going to affect my property.


Phil Baxter: Thank you.


Doug McClure: Thanks for the time, Iím Doug McClure, 6123 Pfafflin Lake Blvd. We are directly to the south that would abut this subdivision. My concerns would be with where that the drainage with the positions of the roads, if Prairie Drive is allowed to be run down between our property and the Colemanís, there is no where for that water to drain off that road but onto our property and my other concern is to the secondary road that would then abut the back of my home with the undulation of that ground without proper storm system drainage ditch there could be flat spots there with stagnate water sitting there and itís not true that, well Pfafflin Lake for example has a storm system for drainage and thatís the one that is going to be directly connected to. So I have some real concerns about the drainage coming down through there directly onto our property from both of those streets that are going to be put in there.


Mrs. McClure: When you put that much cement around a piece of property the water has to go somewhere and especially if Rosewood has no retention pond then this subdivision, if it goes in I would request that it has a retention pond. The water has to go somewhere. Shanks may not be concerned right at the moment but what happens when they want to sell their piece of property and they have all this drain-off going onto their piece of land. There are major issues, I do not want any water in my back yard or my side yard or on my drive-way.


Mr. McClure: Itís one thing for that ground to absorb that water now but with all that timber out of there and two roads running through there, that is a different issue, so I have some real concerns with that. Plus we donít see on the proposed plot any provisions for curbs or gutters on any of those roads. So it doesnít look like there is any drainage system planned at all and Iím not an expert at looking but according to the plot I didnít see any of that. Thank you.


Mrs. McClure:And two big cul-de-sacs.


Phil Baxter: Thank you


Jim Niemeyer:Ms.. Shanks, where is your pole barn?(they showed him on the picture)


The Board called Ms. Shanks up to the podium again and had her explained on the plot and picture where her property and pole barn was.)


There was discussion that water did sheet that way. Don stated that if you looked at the hydraulics, the contours indicate that everything is going to go in that direction.


Ms. Shanks: It already sheets that way, this area up here where the houses are that is higher than, and its way higher than me but itís higher than where they are looking at putting these houses. Itís up higher and then the houses are lower and Iím even lower, so it automatically would make sense to me that itís going to drain down towards me anyway.


Don Williams: How are you not going to flood her property, I guess that would be my question?


Mr. Merritt: How are we not going to flood Ms. Shankís property?


Don Williams: Because it looks to me like everything sheetsÖÖ


Ms. Shanks: Iíll tell you what I have now, we had a little bit of water issue and we just put in some French drains ourselves which have taken a ton of water off of that cause it used to beÖÖ.there was an area over here that was always wet so we put in a French drain so weíve taken care of any water issue we had, like I said this drains down right here within 15-feet of that pole barn it starts a ditch and then that ditch gets deeper and then, I donít know from the start of that ditch to the big ditch which is the unnamed ditch it canít be 30-feet and then that just empties into the main ditch.


Don Williams:Now your territory ends with the line hereÖ


Mr. Shank again stated that if they wanted to curve that, she is okay with that.


Don Williams:I think you are a lot more confident than I am, there is a lot of impervious area going in there.


Nova Conner: I think too and to be honest weíre leery because weíve had some flooding problems.


Don Williams:I think once the water gets to the ditches I believe the water will go away, the question is how concern are you about your area being flooded?


Ms. Shanks: yeah, I donít get water in it now and I donít want water in it. He has some things that will stop the water but youíll have to ask him what those are.


Don Williams:What do you have exactly?


Mr. Merritt: I guess I had a couple of comments on the McClureís, as far as drainage goes, all of the water from their property is draining toward our property and as far as curbs and gutters our roads we turned in the plans to Mr. Howard and he has reviewed them and they are satisfactory and meet their requirements. There are curbs and gutters on the roads as you can see on the drainage plan. The part in section 500 that pipe is stubbed out to capture the water that is coming from the McClureís property, I mean it is designed to carry the 50-year storm per the Warrick County Ordinance and then it discharges through our storm sewer system down towards Ms. Shankís pole barn like weíre talking. I had questions initially like what sheís talking about cause if you go out there and look at it, once that ditch leaves our property and goes onto Ms. Shanks it basically just flattens off and there is a small channel there but there is not much of a channel and I mean weíve got probably a 3-4 foot ditch on our property and it goes to maybe a foot deep ditch and it kind of wraps around the south side of her pole barn. If she is okay with allowing us to define a channel through her property to that existing tributary cause like she said itís not very far around her pole barn, weíre talking 50 to 75 feet total to get to that big ditch and then once itís there, itís gone which is the whole point on no retention that the Ohio River is right here that un-named tributary is right there everything else thatís out in this area is draining to those two tributaries that intersect Esche Ditch and this un-named tributary intersect basically at out northeast property line.

Ms. Shanks: I really think Iím getting all the drainage from that whole road in Pfafflins Lake anyway. I mean Iím at the bottom and they are all higher than me. So I feel like Iím already getting all the water. So if what theyíre going to do is centralize it and send it out, again he feels confidant that they are not going to damage any of my stuff and maybe it will work better if he does what he just said make a better channel but I just feel like Iím already getting all the drainage from whatever that road is in Pfafflins Lake.


Mr. Merritt: Yes, right now she is, weíve got an acre and a half or so of off-site water.


Nova Conner: Well, your not getting it all presently because I mean there is the woods and the grass and the ground is absorbing some, so youíre not getting as much as you are going to get.


Phil Baxter: Weíve got a motion to table, we are going to have to move on and I would like if you could to get with the neighbors here and get this worked out, if she will let you put maybe a swale or whatever I am going to ask for a second on this motion and come back the 12th and we will get it taken care of.


Don Williams:I donít see anything that canít be worked out but a handshake isnít the best way to do business in todayís times.


Phil Baxter: So if you can get everything worked out and come back the 12th and weíll get it done real quick.


Mr. Merritt: The issue, I know you guys said something earlier about the County SurveyorÖÖ


Don Williams:Well, she doesnít want water to do into her barn and it sounds to me like you need to get something together that will do that and as far as it coming south, Iím not sure I see where that will happen with the curve.


Mr. Shanks said something to the effect about if the water were going south it would have to go uphill.


Mr. McClure:Excuse me for jumping in but she is not the only neighbor involved that curving drive would go directly onto our land.


Mr. Merritt: No it would not, we cutting everything, everything on Prairie Drive is a cut. All that water within the right of way is going to be going to the street.And whatever water thatís on your lot now is going to go to your lot? Everything from the intersection of Pfafflin Lake and Prairie Drive is going through our storm sewer system.


Ms. McClureWhere is the drainage ditch, Iím Sharon McClure, where is the big drainage ditch that goes along the road.


Mr. Merritt: There is not a drainage ditch, the concentrated point of where we intercept your water is right here at this flared intersection, there is a ditch there where the water goes to now.


Ms. McClure: There is no drainage ditch all along that road there is no retention pond anywhere on that piece of property.


Mr. Merritt: Weíve already discussed that.


Ms. McClure: Those are two big issues.


Phil Baxter: We have to move on here, we have a motion to table until the 12th do we have a second.


Nova Conner: Second.


Motion was made and seconded to table. Motion carried 3-0.


Commissioner Williams asked the people who had complaints to please give their names addressed etc to the surveyor, he stated that he doesnít see anything that canít be worked out. Mr. Steve Sherwood is the licensed surveyor.




Phil Baxter: Weíve got one claims for Mr. Zengler for $314.16.


Don Williams:Move to approve.


Nova Conner:Second


Motion was made and seconded to approve claims. Motion carried 3-0.


Phil Baxter: Do we have any other business?


Don Williams:We do have a matter of business we need to resume before we get out of here. The Drainage Board had we made a motion and passed a motion to go to a concurrent meeting with the Drainage Board and I would like to move on the Drainage Board side I would like to move that we do that and that we schedule the first concurrent meeting at 2:30 on the 12th and those meetings will be at 2:30 on the second and fourth Wednesday of each month.


Nova Conner: I second that.


Motion was made and seconded to have concurrent meetings of the Drainage Board and Stormwater Management. Motion passed 3-0.

Commissioner Williams made motion to adjourn. Motion was passed 3-0.