MARCH 26, 2008
The Warrick County Drainage Board met in regular session with President Phillip H. Baxter presiding; also in attendance were Nova Conner, Vice-President; Sean M. Owen, Deputy Surveyor and David K. Zengler, Attorney for Board.
Minutes were recorded and transcribed by Cheryl D. Embry.
Audience members were Les Shively, Glenn Merritt, Sharon McClure, John Reiplinger, William Bivins,
APPROVAL OF MINUTES:
Warrick County Drainage Board March 26, 2008 will now come to order. First on the agenda is the approval of minutes from March 12, 2008.
Nova Conner: I made a motion that we approve.
Phil Baxter: Second
Motion was made and seconded. Motion passed 2-0.
PIPER RIDGE SUBDIVISION:
Glenn Merritt: I’m with Cash, Wagner and Associates 414 Citadel Circle Evansville, Indiana 47715. A couple of things have happened since the meeting on the 12th. I know both Ms. Conner and Mr. Baxter were wanting to read the letter from Mr. Sherwood and I myself hadn’t gotten a copy of it either at that time. I have had a chance to read through it, he had a couple of statements in there that kind of were….didn’t necessarily ask for us to do something but kind of left some things up in the air, I thought and I addressed them with a letter last Friday. He had a statement stating that the rock check dams that we initially had on the plan, he was a little concerned with the long term maintenance of those structures if they weren’t maintained properly that they might not do what they were supposed to do and I had removed those already on the drainage plan I re-submitted on March 6, 2008 because we had already gotten approval from Ms. Shank to extend the swales through her property behind the pole barn and tie into the main tributary to Esche Ditch. So I had already removed that part of the equation that he had some concerns on.
Then his other statement towards the end of his letter, he said that Esche Ditch should be able to handle the proposed Piper Ridge Subdivision flow and this additional flow can be allowed to discharge to Esche Ditch as similarly stated and then he said but towards the end that our access was through Ms. Shanks property which I already mentioned that we had taken care of that and received a letter from her stating that she was satisfied with the improvements and that we could discharge our flow through her property which is where it goes now anyway we were just going to upgrade that channel where it could handle the flow from our subdivision. One other thing some photos were taken out there just upstream of our property on the morning of March 19, 2008 after the large rainfall that we had on the 18th of March. The picture shows that the ditch can handle a tremendous amount of water.
Nova Conner: Okay, in regards to this can you show me
in terms of like where
Mr. Merritt: This is looking west off of
Nova Conner: Is there anyone here that would like to discuss this?
Sharon McClure: My name is Sharon McClure, my husband Doug
McClure could not be here today because of business. I live on
Nova Conner: And when were those taken?
Ms. McClure: I e-mailed them on…..it was during the rain because my husband walked back there in boots with an umbrella and everything else. I want to say it was either Friday but I e-mailed all three of you pictures.
Nova Conner: Because I was trying to think in you know in regards to yours, yours were on the 18th.
Mr. Merritt: Yes, the morning after it rained all day I think that was on Tuesday and those were taken on Wednesday morning approximately 9 a.m. As far as I know we’ve discussed this before as far as waiving the retention requirement and I know Les that may be what he’s coming up here for that the current ordinance states in section 7 on Storm drainage that if any retention basin is installed then you have to design it a certain way but it does not state in the ordinance that a retention basin is required on every subdivision otherwise Rosewood which is up stream would have one installed on that subdivision considering where it’s located and considering the size in relation to ours. I don’t know if you want to add anything in relation to that.
Les Shively: My name is Les Shively representing the developer of Piper Ridge. I sent a letter earlier this week to your attorney with not only a copy of Mr. Sherwood’s letter to the Drainage Board but also a copy of Cash Wagner’s response. The fact of the matter is that the ordinance that was adopted 2000 regarding requirement retention basins has been super ceded as a matter of law when on March 20, 2006 this Board of Commissioners adopted the Subdivision Control Ordinance for Warrick County and particularly within that ordinance Article 5 Section 7 regarding drainage facilities. This plan conforms to those standards and if you get beyond Mr. Sherwood’s commentary and look at the actual he admits that this plan complies and moreover states that Esche Ditch is more than adequate to handle the runoff providing that the Shank’s understand and they have been satisfied. You’ve already been provided a letter dated March 8, 2008 showing the Shanks are on board shall we say, the couple technical things that Mr. Sherwood wanted addressed have been addressed. They have been remedied and this complies in all respects, in response to Ms. McClure’s comments we are not here about Prairie Drive, we are here about the drainage plan and the McClure’s are upstream they are not going to be…….the only property that is going to be impacted is the property from which water will flow from the Sheller property to Esche Ditch, that’s the Shanks. They are happy, they’ve seen the plan, this gentleman spent a lot of time with the Shank’s. This is a five lot subdivision, only five lots, the calculations have been done, there is full compliance and we have been up here numerous times and have done everything that has been asked to be done. We ask that you approve this, this is not like a zoning issue where you have discretion the law if very clear that where they present a plan that conforms with the requirements of the ordinance your job is to make sure that that plan does conform with those ordinances and gets constructed according to those plans. But beyond that there is no just arbitrary discretion afforded approval of a drainage plan. Again if you have questions for our engineer on the specifics of the plan we will be more than happy to answer those but we think we’ve answered all the questions.
Phil Baxter: Yes, ma’am?
Sharon McClure: Again, it’s not the fact that it’s only a
five lot subdivision. It’s the fact of all the cement that is being poured in
order to get to this proposed subdivision. She has to have
Mr. Merritt: I guess I have just one comment regarding Mrs. McClure’s statements. I know everybody keeps bringing this stuff that we’re getting, I don’t know where she’s coming up with sewers waived but I mean storm sewers are being installed per the County Code, curb and gutters are on the roads and I know she doesn’t want Prairie Drive running directly adjacent to her house but it is public right of way and it is our only access to Ms. Shellers property and that is what it’s there for. As far as any drainage off of that road or our subdivision most of the road is in a cut section where it’s going to be below existing ground so whatever water is adjacent to that road is going to fall into the street and be collected in the gutter and flow to the storm sewer system and then out through Ms. Shank’s property. Any problems that they might have with drainage within Pfafflin Lake our drainage goes through Esche Ditch and then down through Cypress Creek, it is not tied into their drainage system in any way and as a lot of people know, yes there were a lot of roads closed last week but that was because it was a very significant storm event, it wasn’t something that we design for a 50-year storm I never have heard of return period on what the national weather service classified that storm event on the 18th but I would have to say that it was above that 50-year storm requirement. So that is really all I have to add. Thank you.
Phil Baxter: Anyone else? Do you have any questions?
Nova Conner: The one thing that we are really concerned about is because we approve many drainage plans and they meet them all and then invariably there can be flooding, I mean it looks wonderful on paper and then it ends up and its flooding and that is something we are addressing right now. We are developing our drainage ordinances to meet more in detail and you’re right in terms of them meeting what they need to meet they have met in terms of that. It does say in there in terms of retention pond and what you stated Mr. Shively, it says that and that’s where David can you shed any light on that in terms of……..
David Zengler: There was an additional ordinance that Mr. Shively…..that took out the retainage pond issue so that would be………. I think then it becomes in your discretion you know what you want to do. I think Mr. Shively is correct in the……if it does meet…if those plans do meet the requirements of the….as far as the drainage now there’s other issues that he’s talked about that you do have discretion but in the drainage if it meets the requirements of the county ordinances I don’t think you have discretion.
Nova Conner: And like I said I think that’s truly why we have…cause we have had so many flooding issues that we are really trying to develop those drainage ordinances and where they will be more thorough and we will not have a lot of the same issues that we have but I can really truly tell you that we have overlooked and have gotten information from consultants on drainage things and say 100% and then things still have flooded. There’s not a 100% guarantee on anything in terms of that and even though we’re trying to address it 100% is just impossible. So at this point in terms of that Commissioner Baxter, I will go ahead and make a motion that we approve.
Phil Baxter: We’ve got a motion to approve the drainage plans of Piper Ridge, I will second it, all in favor. Commissioner Conner voted aye. Motion passed 2-0.
ALVEY’S SIGNS-EDWARDS DITCH:
Phil Baxter: Okay, Sean you have a sign request?
Sean Owen: Yes, is Mr. Reiplinger here?
John Reiplinger: My name is John Reiplinger I do human
resources and licensing and permits and the like for Alvey’s sign company in
Sean Owen: The sign is in the regulated drain easement that is why he is here today, it is an existing sign but they are going to have to cross a little bit of the regulated drainage easement to put the electric in, the sign in its position now is adequate. We’ve done work on that ditch before with that sign there. The Surveyor’s Office doesn’t see a problem as far as the legal drain is concerned with the renovation of the sign.
Phil Baxter: Any questions?
Nova Conner: I’m just not real big in favor of signs, I feel like we have enough. This one is already there but we are just getting so many signs.
I make a motion that we approve.
Phil Baxter: Second.
Motion was made and seconded to approve work on sign. Motion carried 2-0.
FENCE REQUEST; HUNTINGTON RIDGE:
Phil Baxter: Mr. Snyder?
Sean Owen: Mr. and Mrs. Snyder may have been inadvertently informed that the drainage meeting was at 3:00
Phil Baxter: We will go on to Bill then and give them a few minutes.
Bill Bivins, last week on Wednesday Jim Niemeyer and myself had a scheduled
meeting for that morning to look at Tanglewood Ditch and of course we had the
major major rain the night before and one of the few times I’ve been pleasantly
surprised after we got out there. Tanglewood Ditch stayed in its banks it did
not overflow anywhere and while we were there Jim got a couple of calls from
people complimenting him on the work that the County had done for the ditch.
Now there was a problem on
Phil Baxter: We’ve talked about that Bill or putting a larger pipe in, as far as what you’re saying, I like that better because you don’t have to worry about that pipe being too small or stoppage or anything.
Bill Bivins: Right, if you took out that grade and just put
a standard grade there that would catch the normal water and when you do have a
flood just let it flow over there.
Nova Conner: But it didn’t go south?
Bill Bivins: No, it didn’t go across the road. We were out there all day long.
Nova Conner: On Telephone?
Bill Bivins: Yes, there was no flow over that road.
Nova Conner: Is that right, cause I was thinking I……
Phil Baxter: None that I saw. I was out there three times and I didn’t see any.
Nova Conner: So what happened? I mean cause it was definitely…….
Phil Baxter: The ditch carried it.
Bill Bivins: The ditch carried it, It was a shocker to me too with all the complaints that we had.
Phil Baxter: As far as that pipe I understand that it was an improper size, it’s either 15 or 18 and I think he was asked to put in a 24.
Bill Bivins: Well, by the time it gets down to here it’s
full…..But Jim asked me to come up and explain what we saw out there. I also
went and looked at the two bridges in Tanglewood and went on down and looked at
Phil Baxter: And as I understand it was the biggest rain event since 1901.
Bill Bivins: I heard 1910. So Tanglewood really works.
Phil Baxter: We were pleasantly surprised at a lot of areas.
Nova Conner: Yes, we were, we were excited. We were pleased on the whole and I just feel like we…now we have an opportunity with the Storm Water Management Board to really do more, so we were excited about that.
The Board thanked Bill.
HUNTINGTON RIDGE-FENCE REQUEST:
Sean Owen: I believe Mr. Snyder is here.
Keith Snyder: Keith Snyder 4347
Sean Owen: The fence actually runs parallel with a drainage easement so the Area Plan Commission decided it would be good to get approval from the Drainage Board for that, it may go into the drainage easement a little but its kind of right on the line. But it is only a 4-foot high wrought iron spaced out fence so it shouldn’t make any impedance to water drainage or anything like that.
Phil Baxter: You say you don’t have all the approvals?
Mr. Snyder: No, I don’t have approval from everybody yet. We lack Newburgh Sewer and Indiana American Water are the two that we’re missing.
Nova Conner: Keith, I’m going to be honest with you we’ve had some real issues with fences and easements and again that is what we’re discussing in our drainage ordinances and I will not be voting for any fences in the easements at this time because we’ve had problems with people come and need the waiver and then put another kind of fence in. We’ve had a lot of drainage issues with it even though it’s wrought iron, stuff gets caught in it so at this time then again I probably will not be giving my vote will not be for any of the easements so………
Phil Baxter I can tell you the third member of the Board can’t be here today and I won’t say that I will or won’t but after you get permission from the other utilities you might come back and try again.
Mr. Snyder: Okay, would it help to bring anything else like a picture of the layout?
Phil Baxter: Yes, it might help.
Nova Conner: I think Don would probably like that, our other commissioner.
Phil Baxter: Any other information you could give us would be helpful.
David Zengler: You might also bring a picture of the fence or a graph anything that shows the fence I think it might help for the Commissioner that’s not here.
Snyder: What do I need to do to get on the docket again or do I need to wait until I get approval from all the utilities before I set it up again?
David Zengler: Normally you have approval from all the utilities before you come before the Board, so I would say get your approvals first and then contact the Surveyor’s Office about getting back on the docket.
Mr. Snyder: Okay, thank you.
Phil Baxter: Does anyone else have anything to come before the Drainage Board?
INVERNESS DRIVE COMPLAINT-HEBNER & LOGEL
Stan Logel: I’m Stan Logel, I live at
Sean Owen: I was unaware that it was supposed to be on the agenda, I did receive some information from Easley Engineering about two hours ago but I have not had a chance to review it and Mr. Niemeyer is out of town this week and has not had a chance to review it yet.
Mr. Logel: So, I mean they have done a couple of things up there and I don’t think it’s to code or I mean it’s causing problems the lake overflows down on my neighbors who owns a lake below him and then it causes his lake to overflow now in my out building which is 24 X 30 barn and I’ve been there for 30 years and they have always had a 10-inch pipe overflow and now they’ve put in a 30-inch culvert with a 24-inch pipe and it’s causing so much more water coming over in…down into the lower lake on me and then into my building. It’s just flooding the area down there every time we get a 2-inch rain. It used to be you know you would have to get a pretty good rain for that lower lake to overflow, now every time you get a 2-inch rain that lower lake overflows and comes down onto my property and down on my neighbor. He has some dogs and it almost gets into his dog pens now. It never had done that before this past spring or whenever they put this big 24-inch pipe in.
Nova Conner: But Jim met with you and kind of talked about some type of plan is that what you’re saying.
Mr. Logel: Well, first of all we met with Mr. Easley when he first put it in because I knew that was going to be a problem back in August or July or whenever he put it in. We told him that you went from a 10-inch to a 30-inch pipe and he said well this is an overflow pipe, well right now this pipe is 10-inch and its trickling into there and if this lake raises 5-6 more inches its already into this 30-inch big culvert and then it goes in there and comes out a 24-inch pipe. Mr. Niemeyer has pictures of it and he’s got all kinds of documents and we’ve took pictures and I think you were up there looking at it.
Sean: Yes, Mr. Niemeyer has been in contact with Easley Engineering and Don Lee and we have just received some information about it. It’s been a little hard to dig up some of the information with the passing of Mr. Easley.
Mr. Logel: Mr. Easley died, I realize that but he kept saying he would get back with us and he never did get back with us. We did see Mr. Frudenburger up there now he’s tried to do something up there, he’s put a 14-inch raise pipe with a bunch of holes in it well that’s restricting the water more and that’s going to cause the level of the lake to raise and dump into that 30-inch culvert real quick.
Nova Conner: You want to put this on the next agenda then.
Sean: Yes, we just received the information from Easley Engineering.
Mr. Logel: When will that be, the next meeting.
Nova Conner: April 9th at 2:30.
Eugene Hebner: Stan and I went up to that lake the other night, we seen Frudenburg up there at the lake, he was spreading some straw up there, I guess he was seeding that bank down. What started this whole thing up there is the lake that he had had a 10-inch drain in it, the lake below had a 10-inch drain and when it rained everything kind of went in flow. This 10-inch drain went to this lake this lake you know took it and went on, nothing overflowed. Now then if we get anything like two inches it floods, it’s into his building, it’s washed his backyard out, it’s making a bigger ditch in my yard and I’ve come up several times, Niemeyer’s been down and these guys understand the problem, he came down one time with him and as late as this week when we went up there and he was throwing this straw out. It was one evening last week probably Wednesday or Thursday and he said I understand what you people’s saying but you’ve got to remember he said these people up on the hill here where I’m selling these lots they want a bigger lake. Now this is his response, they want a bigger lake up here and I said well you didn’t go….he said this is all to code and I said you didn’t go through nobody to put this in. In fact he told a neighbor down below was what he wanted to do was clean that bank off which is the dam, he said you mind if we clean that off a little bit, what he done, he dug the whole dam out and put that 24-inch drain in there, it wasn’t about cleaning it off. But anyway the other night he said I’m going to make you people happy, he said what do you think we should do? We told him what we thought he should do is dig where that 10-inch drain is, go on and dig down about a foot and a half deeper out around to where that water can funnel down to that and drain through the 10-inch and then if it ever did need to get up to that one he put in that 24-inch they could reduce that down but raise it another foot before they done that because if it’s an overflow that he’s worried about he’s 3-foot below the road up there. He can go up at least another foot it’s not in danger and he said well I can do that. We went up there I guess yesterday they had a thing put in and they’ve raised that 10-inch about 14 more inches higher and put some holes in that 10-inch plastic pipe for drain, all that’s going to do is slow that down and right now it’s only 6-inches from this 24-inch thing. So it’s just going to flood worse than it was now even from the other day. But I would appreciate it if you folks would get with him and do something, it’s washing there by my house where you cross and the culvert is getting washed out now just in the last month. His yard has a cup in it now where it’s all draining, there is no reason for that he said the other night if I have to do to much I’ll just put it back like it was. I said that would be wonderful we didn’t have a problem, by law you probably need to do that, you didn’t have permission to do this anyway. He said but if I do that you’re going to have to get behind me with these people up here I’ve sold to. I said what are you talking about I don’t owe them a darn thing. If you promised them a bigger lake, I’m sorry but I don’t know what he’s going to do but it looks like he’s not going to do anything guys. I appreciate it if you would help us out.
Phil Baxter: Is that directly up behind your house?
Mr. Hebner: No, it’s directly behind the guy that owns the lake down there behind me then his house is there but all the water comes to me every bit of it. I mean through the 10-inch pipe it comes all down off the lake, the bottom lake and goes down behind my house onto my property a piece of property that I bought that ditch is and it’s just eroding the heck out of it.
Sean: Yes, they live on
Phil Baxter: Yes, I know where he lives.
Phil Baxter: Claims
Nova Conner: I make a motion that we pay the claims.
Phil Baxter: Second
Motion was made and seconded. Motion passed 2-0.
Commissioner Baxter asked if there was anything else to come before this meeting? Commissioner Conner made a motion to adjourn, 2nd by Commissioner Baxter. Motion carried 2-0.