APRIL 9, 2008
The Warrick County Drainage Board met in regular session with President Phillip H. Baxter presiding, also in attendance were Nova Conner, Vice-President; Don Williams, Secretary, James E. Niemeyer, Surveyor and David K. Zengler, Attorney for Board.
Also in attendance was Sean M. Owen, Deputy Surveyor.
Those present in the audience were Sarah Evans, Sharon Austin, Scott Dotson, Bill Bivins and Ron Backner.
APPROVAL OF MINUTES:
Don Williams: Move to approve.
Nova Conner: Second
Motion was made and seconded to approve minutes. Motion carried 3-0.
HILL VIEW SUBDIVISION DRAINAGE PLANS:
Phil Baxter: We have drainage plans for Hill View Subdivision.
Bill Bivins: Bill Bivins, Engineer. This is two lots proposed subdivision one existing house and one new large lot with access through the cul-de-sac there on Le
nn Road. I ran the drainage calculations and it requires a retention basin of 374 cubic yards which is shown on the southeast corner of the property. There was discussion last month about drainage and I have a little map here I would like show you if I could what theyíre drainage problem is out there. This is the subject property there are no pipes or ditches on this property, this property or this property. Now weíre going downhill, hereís the drainage ditch this property has a 12-inch pipe in the drive-way, this property has 10, this last property has 8.† So water is normally going to run out in the street. This property right here is approximately two feet lower than the existing street, so water is going to collect on him. Weíre proposing to put a berm in here to catch the water and store it and release it in the swale back behind the buildings there.
Don Williams:† Where does that end up Mr. Bivins?
Bill Bivins: It ends upÖ.this ditch goes all the way through here. Theyíve got a big enough pipe here, the County has a big enough pipe.
Nova Conner:†† So where did you say at the end itís going to run, show me again.
Bill Bivins: Okay, thereís an existing ditch and it goes back behind, the swales back here into the existing ditch that goes through there. And of course weíre releasing it at the same rate that it is running off now with the retention in there. Like I say itís such a small area you can see this big lake here, I actually calculated considering all this water going this way. I calculated my figures and only came to a 374 cubic retention that we had to have.
Don Williams:† How much of it is draining into that lake?
Bill Bivins: Iíd sayÖwell look at the contours here, Don and itís probably somewhere in about like this. Probably about a fourth of the existing actually goes into that lake.
Don Williams:† Thatís still headed south?
Bill Bivins: Yes
Nova Conner:† So thereís never been any really water issues behind there at all where itís going down the swales into theÖ..youíve never had any type ofÖ..
Bill Bivins: No, like I said the problem is as I see it and I met with Mr. Niemeyer and we looked at it. There is no ditches† here and thereís no pipes in any of these drive-ways.
Don Williams:† So to correct that we almost need toÖ..
Bill Bivins: Need to ditch and put pipes in there and these pipes need to be sized properly.
Don Williams:† Do
they run down along the front of the drive or where those pipes actually run. I
know Iím asking you questions that may not be, they are right along
Bill Bivins: They are probably 10 feet off the asphalt would be my guess.
(Mr. Bivins is not on a microphone so some of his conversation is very hard to decipher and may not be accurate)
Phil Baxter: Bill, youíre showing a swale here, did you say a berm?
Bill Bivins: Well, a swale to catch the water to keep it from running there and direct it all to the retention basin.
Nova Conner: So even if we do that we still I mean those residents it doesnít solve the problem that they are having?
Bill Bivins: No
Don Williams:† Well, have we got anything from those folks out there concerning any drainage problems? (someone in the audience said everybody) Okay, now I know who you are.
Bobby Howard: The back yard swales, youíre saying that those will function and take the water down to the ditch?
Mr. Bivins answer was not decipherable because members of the Board were also talking and Mr. Bivins was not on a microphone. He did state that this property was existing like that when the gentleman bought it and that he has not done anything to it to cause this.
Don Williams:† What would it take to take care of that drain?
Bobby Howard: Well, to keep the water from coming across the street onto the south end side weíd have to ditch through how many drive-ways are there?
Bill Bivins: six
A lady in the audience wants to be explained about Mr. Bivins plans and how they would be affected.
Bobby Howard: By looking at what weíre talking about here, do you want me to explain the situation? He is looking at putting in a retention basin for his lot to limit the developed flow that would come down off of the hillside and make the water come down to the backyard behind Mr. Becknerís house and run down that way back to the ditch and through to the ditch under Lenn Lane. Now part of the water problem that was determined out there was the homes on the north side of the road that ditch doesnít flow properly down to the large drain under Lenn Lane, that those culverts would also need to be repaired or replaced and that ditching would need to be done all the way from the cul-de-sac to the largest ditch underneath Lenn Lane.
A lady in the audience asked if this would be done at the Countyís expense.
Don Williams:† If itís like most projects the county would put the pipe in and with the new Stormwater management Iím just talking as one member but it could be taken on as a project probably the only thing is that the property owners would be out would be where everybody has an equal size pipe, am I correct there Bobby?
Bobby: Normally driveway culverts would beÖyou would supply the cost for the driveway culvert replacement for the pipe itself. Your side is not affected itís the north side of the road. Your driveway culverts are your access points to the right of way and you actually maintain your own driveway culverts. So if they would need to be replaced for any reason itís usually the property owner that is responsible for the costs of the driveway culverts. The county is offering to do the installation for you and the ditching.
A gentleman in the audience was saying something about this didnít happen until they took some piles out and mowed the hill down.
Bobby: Well, the driveway culverts showed that a problem existed in a heavy rain because they are all undersized for even a 25 year storm event.
The gentleman stated that they had never had this problem before.
Bobby: And he is redirecting some of this water to come back down the south hold it in a basin and release it slowly, so that it doesnít rush down off the hill. Thatís what heís proposing at this time.
Bill Bivins: Actually what weíre going to do is to on our overflow pipe will actually be a perforated pipe to let the water leak out slowly. There is enough to retention in there to store twice as much water as weíre required to.
Bobby: So youíre oversized your basin.
Bill Bivins: Yes
Don Williams: How much did you make it?
Bill: I think it came out to around 800.
Don Williams: So youíre looking at instead of a fifty year a hundred year.
Nova Conner:† And what was he saying in terms of it didnít start happening until when?
Can you come forward and tell us that, Iíd like for you to tell me about that.
Ron Backner: Ron Backner 7411 Lenn Lane, when they went up there I donít know before when whoever owned that property up there built a pole barn up there, ok I donít know if they had a permit to do that or not ok, and then whatever happened it changed hands and they went up there and cut all that or bulldozed that flat or cut all that hay out of there and then it started cause they started driving up in there putting businesses up in there. They started putting manure and big bricks and then it started when it rained, it just washed my driveway away, the neighbors driveway awayÖÖ
Bobby: Ok, what heís saying part of that fix would be is toÖ.they will keep that water from coming to your driveway, it will come around the back end through released at a slower rate.
Mr. Backner: At the back of my place?
Mr. Backner: Well, right now it comes down there now.
Bobby: Right, but it comes through your driveway.
Mr. Backner: No, it comes through the yard, Mr. Niemeyer was there he seen it.
Jim Niemeyer: Part of the problem out there is behind his place its sheet flow down the hill but heís also I think has another problem, it appears that his neighbor has installed a sump pump to drain his basement and that water comes out right on the back of his lot there on the property line.
Mr. Backner: Iím flooded out inside my house now.
Bobby: Is his neighbor Billís client?
Mr. Backner: Yes
Bill Bivins: We can direct that sump pump and pump it into that retention basin if thatís a concern.
Mr. Backner: You know you guys can say what you want but water is water and I donít believe any of it, you know what I mean. I think you build up there your going to get more water coming down that hill and unless he retains that water west of me all of it, itís coming into my yard, okay and Iíve already put a wall up there. Iíve got pictures now where they put logs (?) up there all that water is coming in my yard and in my house and itís not going to get any better by building up there, so they end up driving through there and putting more roads in there whatever theyíre going to do up there.
Bobby: Basically it will be allowed one access drive off the road to come into one residence.
Mr. Backner: How big is this residence?
Mr. Bivins: I canít answer that until the lot is sold but you wouldnít think anyone would build a house that would exceed what is in the neighborhood.
Mr. Backner: Because I know that property, somebody bought that property north of us and I donít know who bought that I think it was state farm guy and I think theyíre trying to up through there and come around the back side.
Bill Bivins: Weíre not involved with that. (Bill still isnít on a microphone and what he is saying is mostly inaudible)
Mr. Backner: Iím just telling you Iím getting flooded, neighbors below me are getting flooded out ok, the guy next to me has his garage flooded out, thatís how much water comes down off the hill and we never had that problem until they got rid of all the grass.
Bill Bivins: Thereís grass up there.
Mr. Backner: This grass used to be this high. (?) It was hay and it held it up there, we never had any problem and you canít tell me any different, I live there.
Phil Baxter: Any questions?
Bill Bivins: We are designing ????? required to slow the water down. ( something about a retention basin)
Don Williams: †How big is the lot? 1.8?
Bill Bivins: Yes
A lady in the audience asked where would that water drain into our backyards?
Bill Bivins: Thereís a easement along all the backyards.
Lady: There is a main sewer line that goes down that easement and so you would have water draining?
Mr. Bivins: It would go down to the ditch that takes care of the whole subdivision.
Lady: So could we all have back gardens and everything and your saying it wonít flood us out?
Bill: Weíre not going to be releasing any more water than youíre getting now but thatís the thing itís designed to let the water release the same as itís doing now.
Don Williams:† It should be slower shouldnít it?
Nova Conner: I think thatís how because I do see some of the retention ponds that donít work. We look at them and think thatís the answer and then they donít.
Bill: Well, if I put this swale in there it will be directing all the water away from the street and thatís really where everybodyís front yard is flooding down there now because of that.
Don Williams:† So the drive going in there would there be a swale that would go over it, is that what youíre saying?
Bill: What weíll do is weíll have a pipe that willÖÖ..
Don Williams:† will take it through it?
Bobby: Is currently the water running from across the road because the pipes are too small and flowing to their front yards to their backyards?
Bill: This gentlemanís problem is Bobby, is that the street is about 2-3 feet higher than his house because there is no ditch there and any water that runs off the road is going to run directly to his house.
Jim Niemeyer: He has a retaining wall in the back of his house to keep the water from going in.
Nova Conner: Itís not working?
Jim Niemeyer: No
Bill was saying something to the effect that there was nothing there to keep the water from running toward his house. It looked like to me these other pipes down here were carrying the water on the south side from him, but the north side definitely all this water thatísÖthereís no ditches up there and probably some of it in the heavy rain did (inaudible) I didnít see the property before there was no grading of any kind that had been done up there, he may have mowed the weeds down but as far as doing any dozing or anything up there to create a problem nothing was done up there ------------except for cleaning up the place.
Lady: (no name)† I live on lot number 15. Mr. Meyer bought the property knowing it was landlocked and that he could not build on it, so heís now looking to you to more or less bail him out. Mr. Meyerís owns the property on lot 11 but does not live in the subdivision because he has turned it into a rental property, as it is it seems that he has a hard time keeping the property maintained and rented. The property is currently for rent and has been for several months. Hill View is a cul-de-sac subdivision with 20 building lots. The subdivision covenant which I acknowledged did expire in 1999 indicated that a residential building lot used herein shall consist of a minimum of 1 residential lot or tract that under no circumstances may any residence be erected, constructed, altered, placed or permitted to remain on less than one full lot as subdivided according to the recorded plat of the subdivision. As you know, Mr. Myers wants to take part of lot 11 to create a frontage in order to build on some property behind lot 11 thus opening up the cul-de-sac. When the covenant was in effect it took ĺ of the property owners to modify any provisions, in other words if ľ or 5 lot owners objected then the proposed modifications would not be approved. When the covenant was in effect the lot owners had some say in decision making responsibilities regarding any modifications that would affect the neighborhood and properties, since the covenant has expired it appears that we as property owners no longer have any protection only two adjacent property owners were even notified of these hearings and you as members of the Area Plan Commission who do not live in our subdivision will be making the decision that will affect our lives and properties. In making that decision I hope you will at least listen to the voice of the subdivision property owners who are voicing concerns about potential drainage problems. What the potential building site will eventually be is for what the long term ramifications might be if the cul-de-sac is opened up thereby potentially giving other landlocked property behind lot 11 access. At the last hearing we had six lot owners who did object which is more than the ľ that would have been required under the covenant. I do not see that Mr. Meyerís proposal will enhance the neighborhood or my property value, but will only enhance Mr. Meyerís pocket book.
Bill Bivins: As she stated the restrictions have expired on this or we would not be here if the restrictions were in place we would not be here and we did notify everyone that we are required to notify on this which is the adjacent landowners.
Nova Conner:† So youíre building one home and you donít know what itís going to look like or size or anything?
Bill Bivins: No
Lady: It just seems like a lot of expense and trouble for one home and it affects a lot of our lives and our property.
Bill Bivins: We are offering a solution for part of the drainage problems if you know, if we donít do anything the drainage is not going to change out there. Weíre offering a solution to help the drainage.
Phil Baxter: Any other questions?
Don Williams:† Will the berm or the swale, what was your name again sir?
Don Williams: Because he says heís getting water from here. Will that swale startÖ.
Bill Bivins: Weíll start at the property line and direct everything that way, thatís the way Iíve got it calculated.
Don Williams:† Because
you know if the swale is built properly and the retention basin theyíll have
less water. The other thing that needs to be done is probably
Jim Niemeyer: It really the day we had one of those large rains, I was out there two consecutive days and I took pictures and the water was really coming down that street and it was flooding like Bill said from this side over across the road. It was really bad, none of the culverts are open and thereís hardly any semblance of a ditch out there either.
Phil Baxter: The culverts are all blocked up?
Jim Niemeyer: Yes
Don Williams:† When we do this I think all the property owners have to agree to the project if the storm water managementÖ.
Bobby: Actually for the storm water management to doÖ..itís in road right-of-way.
Don Williams:† Oh itís in road right of way, so it wonít be a problem we could just do it and it would take the water away from their houses, then at least it should get away a lot faster. Because Iím concerned, I understand their concern cause weíve had all the flooding and water we want. If that swale was built down along that east side of the border there and itís piped under the roadway going in off the cul-de-sac it shouldÖ..
My only concern is coming down along the back of those properties what is built in the drainage way, is there anything in there thatís going to slow that water down.
Bill Bivins: Thereís a few trees in there but itís nothing thatísÖ..it was designed for the drainage.
Bobby: If this would be approved weíd also want to put a stipulation in there about the self pump drain draining toÖ.†††† Someone answered yes
There was discussion between the board most of it not audible discussing the plan then Don Williams asked what could be done to keep the water off his property? This is Mr. Backnerís place here.
Bill Bivins: Heís got a drain right here, what he needs perhaps is to put a little ditch with a swale in there you know to allow that water to keep it from running toward his house.
There was other discussion between Board members with discussion about natural drainage that was not all picked up.
Mrs. Kristenski: Iím Mrs. Kristenski, we donít have any ditches behind our houses, our sewers are back there and they go down real far believe me because we had to dig one up and it was like 9-foot down. But we donít have any drainage ditches back there. That property belongs to another person directly behind us it was sold and itís just laying with nobodyÖsomebody owns it, C. Larry Rhodes owns it but I donít think he has an access road on Lenn Lane so heís unable to do much with it, I donít think, thatís what they say.
Bobby: Whatís your address?
Bobby: Weíre talking about the ditches on the south side of
Don Williams: So the water coming in the back side is coming from the hill itís not coming from this ____?___ area?
Mrs. Kristenski: Yes, well we still get water too. Our yard almost dried up and now its raining again. My grandsonís are very upset as they canít ride their cars in there.
Bill Bivins: (not on microphone) Mr. Howard suggest that we add a stipulation is that we will pump the sump pump into the retention basin which is going to be right there.
Don Williams:† What sump pump?
Bill Bivins: The sump pump on his existing property which isÖ.
Phil Baxter: The one they brought up a while ago.
Bill Bivins: It actually pumps out the back yard but we can ____?____ it to the retention basin.
Jim Niemeyer:† Itís very wet.
Don Williams:† Mr. Meyer
Bill Bivins: Yes it just runs in his back yard.
Don Williams:† Youíll have to get an agreement with him to do that wonít you?
Bill described that Mr. Meyer owned the house.
Don Williams:† I think it will work providing we do that project.
A lady in the audience said something about the south side and sewers and Don answered that they understand that itís what they call a natural drainage where the water flows, itís not a ditch.
She then asked if they were going to be doing work in their backyards? She was wondering how they would get access to it.
Bill Bivins answered no, but that it is a public utility easement but they will not be in it.
Lady: Okay, there is a public utility easement behind our properties but there is ÖÖlike there is a main sewer line that runs between my property and the next property but the utility company never took an easement when they put that big sewer in.
Jim Niemeyer: Could I ask a question for edification how old are the homes out there?
There were different answers but they said on the average about 30 to 36 years. They stated that they were built before almost all the other subdivisions they were one of the first ones in that area.
The Board was in a discussion but it was inaudible.
Don Williams:† How many of you live on the north side of the road?† This is just a question and I realize it would be a kind of frivolous question because you donít know the minds of your neighbors, if the County under our Department of Storm Water Management which isnít this Board but itís the same ( someone in the audience stated they couldnít hear)The question is under the Department of Storm Water Management now the Drainage Board we could not come on private property and take care of your flooding problem. But the DSWM which just came into place, we can take care of helping people out that are having drainage problems and what my question would be to you is do you believe thatÖI donít know how well you know your neighbors but would they be open to the County coming in there and re-piping those drives with the correct size pipe to get the water off that road quicker and get your properties drained quicker?
Some one asked, Do you mean in front?
Don Williams:† Yes
They answered that they didnít think anyone would have a problem but I canít speak for them, but I wouldnít have a problem. But I canít speak for everybody.
Don Williams: I wasnít asking you to sir I was just wondering what your thought was.
Nova Conner: Well, I think Jim should share the concern here, the one that you just shared with me about theÖright here, I think you need to share that with the Board.
Jim Niemeyer: Yeah,† well, we need to and I think they already have that under advisement is re-direct that sump pump inÖÖÖ
Nova Conner: Is that what you were saying?
Don Williams:† Back into the lake.
Nova Conner:† So it wouldnít drain directly onto his property. That would help the issue.
Bill Bivins was speaking the whole time but with other conversations and he was not on a microphone it was inaudible.
Some one I think Mr. Backner, asked, Now where they planning on putting the water now?
Jim Niemeyer: Direct it from the outlet, you know that you showed me by the fence there and they will take that sump pump affluent and put it into the detention pond. So it wonít be coming out onto your property any longer.
Someone not on the microphone, still the same person asked something about the detention pond but he was mostly inaudible.
Bobby: That will come back through your back yard. Well, it will come through at a slower rate than what it does now.
Something was said about there not being a ditch back there for it to flow.
Bill Bivins: Itís all downhill back through there.
The audience kept asking questions but they were inaudible.
Bobby: No, I mean thatís where the water flows naturally now from the hill top and all heís doing is releasing it slower through the same area.
Mr. Backne (?)r keeps talking and explaining but it is also inaudible.
Phil Baxter: Okay, weíve got to move on here. Whatís the wishes of the Board?
Mr. Backner (?) is still talking about never having this problem and Bill Bivins keeps answering but it is also all inaudible.
Someone else starts talking also but they read that this meeting was supposed to be a 6:00 tomorrow.
Don Williams:† Now thatís the County Council.
Phil Baxter: Any more questions?
Don Williams: †No, I agree with Mr. Backner that itís just a guess but by the engineering designs there should be less water instead of more by building that swale down through there and putting everything into that lake. It should take care of a lot of your problems because the water should be coming at you slower when they do this not faster. That lake should hold it and instead of just coming down off that hill and your saying we wonít know until we see and I understand.
Mr. Backner stated something about east of the lake where itís coming down.
Bobby: It will be an improvement over what it is today.
Don Williams:† I think thatís safe, how big of an improvement thatís the only question.
Someone in the audience said something about building something up and letting the water run to the people behind them (there was laughter)
Don Williams:† If you get anything in that lake over build not underbuild. Okay I mean we donít have a whole lot of choice because of the qualifications of the law thatís in place and you know that too, but you know what our concerns are and you might talk to Mr. Meyer about the possibility of having a nice fishing lake there and building it even bigger. (someone said something about a lake) Okay, youíre talking about over on the northwest side.
Phil Baxter: We have to move on what are the wishes of the Board?
Don Williams:† I hesitate but I think they are well in line with the statute and what do they call that triditiary duty whatever it is we have to obey our own laws but I would make a motion to approve the drainage plans with the fact that the house here, Mr. Meyer that that sump pump goes directly to the lake if he is willing to do that and that the berm on the east side of the property starts at the very northern part of the property and goes all the way down to the lake, that way it keeps the water out of that cul-de-sac and we donít have our Storm Water Management Board meeting open do we? We didnít open them both like we usually do (David Zengler answered we do not) and Iíll just wait but along with that I would like to see us take and I think we have the money to do it, to take and do a project on the north side there to clear the water out of the road so they do get a heavy rain much quicker. So my motion is that we approve providing the lake isÖhe said heís designing it at a 100 year so at a 100 year with the sump pump going to it and that would be my motion.
Jim Niemeyer: Second
Don Williams:† Youíre not on this Board.
Phil Baxter:† Iíll second it, all in favor?
Motion was made and seconded with 2 ayes and 1 nay from Commissioner Conner. Motion carried 2-1.
Phil Baxter: Any other business before the Drainage Board?
DEPARTMENT OF STORM WATER MANAGEMENT:
STORM WATER SEWER UTILITY RATE:
Phil Baxter: We will now open Department of Storm Water Management. First on the agenda is, itís a Public Hearing, so weíll recess Storm Water Management and open Public Hearing for Ordinance submitting Storm Water Sewer Utility Rate, is that the way it was advertised?
Bobby: Yes, I think I believe you have all read the ordinance, the rate changes.
Don Williams:† What is the ordinance number on that?† 2008-1? I move that we approve Ordinance 2008-1.
Bobby: Do we need to read the title?
Don Williams:† Yes, the title go ahead and read the title.
David Zengler: Weíre actually having a Public Hearing.
Don Williams: Oh, Okay we donít do any motions then weíll do it later. Iím sorry.
Public Hearing is open then?
Phil Baxter: Any comments on the ordinance?
Don Williams:† You have the title of the ordinance? Iíll read it, the title of the ordinance is Ordinance by the Board of Directors of the Department of Storm Water Management Warrick County amending Storm Water Utility Rates. Actually weíre lowering the rates. Thatís all I have to say, I think I made the proposal originally for those reduction rates so weíll need to go through those unlessÖÖ
Phil Baxter: I think we all know them.
David: I would say if there is no other public comment then we could close the Public Meeting and then you can proceed with the ordinance.
Nova Conner: Thatís just on this number 1, he was thinking thatÖÖÖ
David: This is only on the ordinance weíre amending.
Phil Baxter: Okay, weíll close the Public Hearing and reopen the Storm Water Management Meeting. Do we have a motion on the ordinance?
Don Williams:† Yes, I would move that we approve Ordinance 2008-1
Nova Conner: Second
Motion was made and seconded to approve ordinance. Motion passed 4-0.
Bobby: David could you go ahead and walk us through the procedures.
David Zengler: Yes, I think Mr. Howard will bring that up in your Commissioners meeting for you to approve and then assuming the Commissioners approve it, it would go to the County Council, so we need to get that on their agenda.
Bobby: I will have that on their next months agenda for review.
Phil Baxter: Okay, weíve got the minutes from March 12, 2008.
Nova Conner: I make a motion that the minutes are approved.
Don Williams:† Second
Motion was made and seconded to approve minutes. Motion passed 4-0.
Bobby: Okay, quickly I have a user fee status update. I talked with Doug Baldesari of Umbaugh & Associates and they have corrected their data base based on the information that I gave them and our new calculated annual budget for the Storm Water Department would be 1 million 2 hundred thirty three thousand five hundred eighty four dollars
($1,233,584.00) annually that will come into installments of six hundred sixteen thousand seven hundred ninety two dollars ($616,792.00) in order to do the storm water projects. So I have sent the spread sheets over to the Auditorís Office to send to Manitron to get them in place and that is just a quick update. Iíll know more about that hopefully later this week.
PROPOSAL ON WEBSITE INPLEMENTATION
Bobby: The next item I have is a proposal on our website
implementation, I have forwarded a copy of the agreement earlier to Mr. Zengler
earlier today so I hope heís had time to review it but I didnít know if he had
any comments or concerns but this would be a website with up to ten (10) pages
of content. Itís kind of based on
David Zengler: Considering the amount weíre talking about I think this contract is fine, I think obviously if we were talking about adding some zeroís to the end I would prefer the project to be a little bit different but I think for this project this is fine.
Phil Baxter Have a motion?
Don Williams:† I move we approve the website proposal.
Nova Conner: Second
Motion was made and seconded to approve proposal. Motion carried 4-0.
Bobby: I believe we have Sara Evans from
Sara Evans: Like he said I live in Tanglewood Subdivision on
It was early and before you can say record rainfall, we donít have to have record rainfall for me to flood. These are pictures, my house is the one to the left with the sandbags.
Don Williams: Are these all the same?
Ms. Evans:† Sort of
Nova Conner: Is this at the end of the cul-de-sac?
Ms. Evans. Yes, Iím at the end of the cul-de-sac. They did
widen the ditch, itís not widened all the way down. So I want to show you, this
was pictures of the last rainfall, these are pictures of 1996 and 97 as you can
tell even though the ditch has been widened they say I still get flooded in the
cul-de-sac. I donít see any difference from 96, 97 to 2008. I would like to
read from the minutes of a Commissioners Meeting at the top it says February
28, 1999, I believe it was 2000. David Rector agreed when I was speaking that I
have a problem down there. At 7: 35 a.m. on March 13, 1997 I talked with
highway garage foreman Jack Gore he informed me and I am quoting from the
minutes. ďHe informed me that the pipe in
Jim Niemeyer: Didnít measure it but it didnít go to 17-feet because there is no room to go.
Ms. Evans: Okay, you didnít measure so we donít know, is it 6-feet it was 5 you told me did it just go to 6?
Jim Niemeyer: Itís approximately 7-foot wide.
Don Williams:† Is that the bottom or the top?
Jim Niemeyer:† Bottom
Ms. Evans: Heís at the bottom, Iím quoting, he says the bottom so but it was supposed to, you told me it needed to be 17-feet wide and you only made it 7. Okay now if you only made it 7 did you go all the way downstream at 7?
Jim Niemeyer:† There are places we couldnít make it.
Ms. Evans: No no
Nova Conner: You couldnít due to theÖÖ..
Jimís answer was inaudible because Ms. Evans kept talking.
Ms. Evans: This is just the other day and you can tell that they still did not widen it.
Don Williams:† Legal drain?
Jim Niemeyer: Yes
Nova Conner: And youíre saying you canítÖ.
Don Williams:† Why canít you go wider?
Jim Niemeyer: Itís not all 75-feet wide, the easement.
Don Williams:† Why isnít it, itís supposed to be 75-feet on both sides of the ditch.
Jim Niemeyer: I donít know why that happened butÖ.
Don Williams:† How wide is it?
Jim Niemeyer: †In spots itís 40-feet in spots itís 75-feet.
Don Williams:† But itís a minimum of 40-feet on both sides of that ditch?
Jim Niemeyer: We went as far as we could go on the north side withoutÖÖ.
Nova Conner: Without getting onto their property?
Bill Bivins: May I help you, when Tanglewood Subdivision was developed they only put a 40-foot easement in there for the total ditch. (the rest of what Mr. Bivins said was inaudible because again he was not on a microphone)
Ms. Evans: So itís 40, Iím sorry but normally you said itís supposed to be 75-feet.
Bill Bivins: Now Iím talking about total normally itís going to be 75-feet from the top of the bank but the whole thing is only 40-feet.
Don Williams:† Youíre talking about from one side out, the other side out is 40-feet.
Bill Bivins: Thereís a 40-foot easement in there, yes.
Ms. Evans: Okay, but thereís not 40-feet downÖÖ.
Don Williams:† Period? For a legal drain?
Bobby: When did that get established as a legal drain, cause it originally had a 40-foot drainage easement and then it became a legal drain later, if I recall.
Jim Niemeyer: If I have to go in there and pull that out, out of the files.
Bobby: Well, if it became a legal drain later it would have had the 75-foot right of entry attached or not?
David Zengler: By statute I think itÖ.if itís a legal drainÖÖunless the ordinanceÖyeah.
Bill Bivins: They have never been able to find where it was ever established as a legal drain, weíve researched this.
Ms. Evans: And that means?
Don Williams: That means itís a bigger problem.
Ms. Evans: Itís been a problem sinceÖthose pictures are dated 1996-97 and itís still flooding in 2008 and theyíre still building. Iíd like Mr. Hampton has someÖto explain about the other part.
Mike Hampton: Iím Mike Hampton I live at
He also showed pictures.
All this water thatís coming down through the houses is going under the street, the ground is eroding and the street is sinking and eventually its going to cave in. Itís being washed away.† The ground is eroding underneath the street and you can see the street cracking, its dropping down so something has to be done there. Weíve lived there 22 years and the water is coming from behind the house out of the fields and the woods you know I mean itís just a natural drain. Something needs to be done behind all of our properties and I donít know how thatís going to happen.
Don Williams: Is there holes in it? What street is that?
Bobby: Iíve looked into this and I donít know that thereís a place to re-direct the water from where it naturally drains down through there but we could look at placing an inlet and area drain behind the curb to tie in with the storm sewer system to help that water get away and increase the size of the pipe there at the end of the cul-de-sac.
Mr. Hampton: Right there in front of my house I think thereís an 8-inch pipe thatís supposed to catch all that water, thatís a joke it may as well not be there.
Bobby: I think itís 12-inch pipe that runs from your house that hits the inlets and the intersection and then runs down to the inlets down by Ms. Evans house. Then that runs down to the legal drain. If it was a legal drain.
Nova Conner: Let me make sure I understand that so itís coming down the side of the house, I meanÖ
Bobby: It comes out of the woods behind his house and goes down between his house and his neighbor and then it pours out over the street and under the street. Itís eroding under the street there, thereís a street drain at that location and when the water backs up in the drainage ditch these drains arenít functioning at all and they were only designed for a 25-year storm event to begin with. But to help eliminate some of this issue with the flooding in the street would be talking about replacing the pipe in the cul-de-sac, giving the larger structure in there a 24-inch pipe putting in a swale over the pipe. I talked myself and Jack Gore met Ms. Evans at her house during one of the rain events and that was discussed with her and I think she would be open to that as far as replacing the structure and putting in the swale. Then we would be adding an inlet into the system at the beginning, really we canítÖÖ when the ditch is up these pipes are going to hold water thereís not a lot we can do there. But we can keep the street from flooding, when the ditch is not full the street currently floods, we can eliminate that situation to keep the water 4 to 6 inches in the cul-de-sac instead of two feet or better that sheís been experiencing by adding a drainage structure at the cul-de-sac with a swale over the top to take the surface water for when the pipes become full from the back water from the ditch. That there would be a surface flow to ensure that street would stay 4 to 6 inches of standing water instead of 2-3 feet.
Ms. Evans: But Bobby in some of those pictures it shows when the cul-de-sac fills up because the pipe is too small, too low when the ditch fills up above this pipe thatís when the cul-de-sac will not flow and the two houses, my house and the next house in those pictures once it gets high enough itís going to flow to that ditch anyway so if we could put a swale there, I mean itís already going between the two houses.
Bobby: But itís got to get 2-3 feet before it will do that, when we put a new pipe and a new swale in we can keep it to where the water would only be 6 inches of water maximum in the cul-de-sac as long as the ditch isnít full. When the ditch is full then youíre going to have water.
Ms. Evans: The ditch gets over the bank now, Mr. Niemeyer said it was flowing but he was I donít think there was hardly any water in the cul-de-sac when you were there.
Bobby: The day I was there the ditch was not out of its bank yet and we had 2 feet of water in the cul-de-sac. The plan that I discussed will eliminate that 2 feet of water in the cul-de-sac when the ditch is not full. But this does not take care of the situation when the ditch is full.
Ms. Evans: Okay, and thereís no way you can widen that downÖ.
Bobby: Thatís through the Drainage Board that we would have to look atÖ.
Don Williams:† Now is that legal or not?
Nova Conner: Thatís what I was going to say I thought you said it wasnít.
Don Williams: †Youíre getting us confused, is it legal or not? If itís a legal drain the Drainage Board will take care of it, if itís not the Storm Water Board will take care of it.
Bobby: How can you determine that† Bobby if itís legal?
Bobby: That would be through Jimís office.
Jim Niemeyer:† We have to go through and do a record search. I have some files but there are other drains that we donít have records on and that means I think we need to start through the courthouse.
Bobby: It could be made a legal drain.
Don Williams:† Well, I donít know that we necessarily need to make it a legal drain because now that we have a Storm Water Department it can be done through that.
Bobby: It becomes a legal drain at a point whenÖ.
Don Williams:† Later on?
Bobby: Yes, just maybe a thousand feet down, I know it for sure itís a legal drain there. So itís justÖ.
Don Williams:† So I guess the question is, is we canít get the required turf on either side of the ditch to widen and deepen as we want then itís of no real value to make it a legal drain.
Bobby: Well thereís structures currently in the way that Iím aware of, thereís a few utilities and maybe a retention or a retaining wall.
Nova Conner: So you think it can be widened?
Don Williams: †Well that;sÖmay not happen.
Bobby: The area is there, the land is there its acquiring the land if thatís the problem we would need to acquire the land to widen the ditch if its not a legal drain.
Ms. Evans: Okay, heís saying nowÖ.but behind me they want to build 18 homes thatís going to flow into that ditch so itís not going to hold it if they build 18 homes on less than 5 acres behind me that will flow into that ditch and as I was reading in 2000 the gentleman said when you build more and more blacktop and more streets, so the ditch is going to get worse not better.
Bobby: Unless itís widened.
Don Williams:† Well thereís been problems in Tanglewood forever, I think itís time that weÖthis is the first time in the history of the county with the establishment of the Storm Water Management Board that we can actually go in and take care of these kind of problems. So we need to study it and determineÖ.
Phil Baxter: Sir, if you donít mind
Don Williams:† Yes we have to move on, but I just want to make a motion because I think we can talk until weíre blue in the face, but I move that Bobby that you look at this and if we need to have a water specialist to evaluate the solution out in Tanglewood, lets find out what it is, get some kind of a cost estimate together and I know itís going to be a big project but I think we need to look at that. I mean this has been a problem forÖhistorically. So for the first time weíve got the full with to try and take care of these kind of problems so thatís my motion. Lets do an investigation see what it takes to fix the problem and then weíll notify you when we get ready to address the problem and Bobby if we need to get a specialist in water then put an RPD together and lets get 2-3 people to bid on it and get the study done.
Nova Conner:† Second.
Motion was made and seconded. Motion passed 4-0.
Don Williams:† I have one other thing concerning out on Lenn Lane, I would like to make a motion that we meet with the homeowners on the north side of Lenn Lane and talk about the possibility of redoing that ditch and those pipes resizing those to a proper value to get that area to drain faster also as a Storm Water Management project.
Nova Conner: Second
Motion was made and seconded. Motion passed 4-0.
Bobby: Now you need to bring it up under your business, Mr. Dotson.
Nova Conner: If you want to come up.
Scott Dotson: My name is Scott Dotson and I live at 1255
(Some of what Mr. Dotson said is lost because a tape was changed instead of two tapes being put in at the start.)
They said no thatís the water table, your pond is the same size as that lake, thatís reclaimed land it flows through the rock thatís just the way it is. I said well thatís not the way it was when I bought it, itís raised ten (10) feet, now somethingís got to be done. So I started walking down the lake, itís the first time Iíve walked down there as itís not my property but I had to see what was going on. If you look at the end of this lake right here which is Mr. Cornellís property youíll see that natural water flow at the very top there has been dammed up, itís dammed up and the water is even raising in the natural water flow. On the other side of that dam is about a 25-foot drop to a natural water flow spillway that goes down the Yankeetown highway. The water actually has between 3 and 5 feet to come up more before it goes over the top of his dam and when it does go over the top of that dam in Iíd say 2 years and it takes that dam out, God help whoever is on that Yankeetown Highway cause itís going to kill somebody. Somebody has got to put a culvert in there. Now I know Mr. Cornell Sr. is dead now, he died two years ago, his son inherited that land, I donít even know if he knows what the problem is. But I canít afford $10,000 a year to raise my drive-way two feet each year. I bought 12 acresÖÖ
Phil Baxter: Bobby, I think you met with Mr. Cornell yesterday.
Bobby: I met and walked the property yesterday with Mr. Cornell looking at that area and we didnít find any culvert in there. That is not, you know like I talked to you on the phone thatís been there since before the year 2000.
Mr. Dotson: Did you not see that valley that goes down to
the highway, did you not see the culvert down on
Bobby: Actually thatís where the valley on the other side of that dam was where we..that you talked about the injunction against him for draining the pit. Thatís where he started digging to drain the pit, he never got throughÖwhat he told me is that he never got that far to even drain that pit before the injunction against him he had to stop digging.
Mr. Dotson: But then he dammed it upÖ..So he dammed it up.
Bobby: The dam was there from an old mine road is what he stated to me.
Mr. Dotson: Okay, that is incorrect, if you would look at the top of that lake you would see where it comes to a point and then you see that long point with water in it, that is a spillway, thatís got to be natural spillway, there has to be a spillway there somewhere.
Bobby: Actually on a lot of these old pits they donít have spillways and points.
Mr. Dotson: Okay, let me tell you this, wheneverÖ..look at the Warrick County GIS, you look at the plat on the other side of theÖyou see where the lots are at on the other side of the lake thereís property that belongs to that subdivision and down that property line the coal mine whenever Mark Warren bought it he said I canít get to that property. The coal mine said Weíll put you a road in there. They put a road in there, now why would they put a road in there thatís going to be 10-foot under water, they ainít going to do that and I guarantee you there are culverts underneath that road. Mr. Cornell put a fence down that from what I understand, this is before I bought itÖ
Bobby: That fence is the property line through there and thatís what they placedÖ.
Mr. Dotson: And did you see the road? How deep do you think..is it 10-15 feet under water?
Bobby: Itís over the top of that access point at this location, itís been over the top several times.
Mr. Dotson: Itís been over thereÖ.the only time Iíve ever seen it was whenever I first bought the property, thatís the only time Iíve ever seen it. Slowly but surly that thingís rising, now you said you went and looked at it?
Bobby: Itís about 3-feet from over the top in his berm (?) right now.
Mr. Dotson:† Right,
Okay when it washes out whatís going to happen to
Bobby: Well, itís going to take a bit to wash out theÖ..
Mr. Dotson: No, youíre right itís going to wash me out first, itís going to flood me out first.
Bobby: Well, basically I donít know what this Boardís jurisdiction is on that, itís property issue betweenÖitís on private property, itís a private pit. I donít know that we have any jurisdiction there.
Mr. Dotson:† He told you he wasnít going to put a culvert in?
Bobby: He said that heÖ.he does not object to the idea of putting a culvert in there but he wants to make sure that he doesnít have any issues with the lease holders that is leasing the property and theÖ.he doesnít know what elevation or the property owners would have to come to some type of agreement on what elevation that pipe would need to be at with thatÖ.itís a mile and a half long pit and everybody along it would need to work together toÖ..
Mr. Dotson: Well, from what I can see by the rest of the people, itís been doing this for years. My house will be under water before this will be resolved. I hate to sound like Iím upset but Iím a little upset. That water is not supposed to be that high, of course you know I guess my developer didnít tell me that that was the water table. He said youíve got an acre pond, I said great Iíve got a horse, he said which one of these lots do you want, he said this pond doesnít dry up and as you can see, he was correct it donít dry up.
Bobby: Thereís no place for it to drain, itís a bowl all the way around it.
Mr. Dotson: Okay, well they didnít tell me that, so
Don Williams:† It
Mr. Dotson: Well, somebody did it, but I mean I bought 12 acres with a 1 acre pond on it, I have 8 acres with at least 6 of that, I have six acres of that and then it goes to my neighbors.
Phil Baxter: Do we have any jurisdiction over this?
David Zengler: I donítÖÖ
Mr. Dotson: You know what Iíve got a list of people Iíve talked toÖ.Army Corp of Engineers, who has jurisdiction over this because nobody does. Division of Water, they donít have jurisdiction over it, Soil and Water, they donít,† Department of Reclamation, they donít have jurisdiction, Corp of Engineers donít have jurisdiction and now Storm Water Management donít have jurisdiction. Whoís got jurisdiction over this?
Bobby: The courts, thatís all I can tell you as far as I know itís a civil issue.
Phil Baxter: When he started to put this pipe in before, who got theÖ..
Bobby: Cornell never tried to put a pipe in.
Mr. Dotson:† Okay, you know did you look at that real good, did you see the 12-inch pipe thatís 3 inches above the dirt line on that road, that 12-inch pipe?
Bobby: In that berm? No, we could not find the pipe.
Mr. Dotson: Letís go, Iíll show it to you, Iíll show you part of it anyway. Somebody put that road in there.
Bobby: And if thereís a pipe there thatís blocked thenÖÖ..
Mr. Dotson: Itís not blocked, itís this far underneath his
road that heís dammed up. Thatís a natural spillway for that lake, you just
donít build a 57-acre lake without some kind of a spillway in it that is
Nova Conner:† Do you know who did the injunction?
Mr. Dotson: No, whoever had the bond on the land whenever it was being mined which is out of Indianapolis, Mark Warren might know, heís supposed to get me all that paper work but itís going to be too late by then.
Nova Conner: So, thereís nothing as far as we can doÖÖ.
Don Williams:† Nothing
Bobby: We canít force a property owner to put a pipe in that Iím aware of.
Mr. Dotson: Well, he said heíd have no problem doing it, I mean, if heíll let you guys put a pipe in please somebody put a pipe in.
Don Williams:† This is strictly a civil issue, is it not, Dave?
David Zengler: Yes
Mr. Dotson: Iím not asking for it to go down 10-feet, give me 3-5 feet thatís all Iím asking, you know if Iíve got to live with 4 acres of water on the front of my property I can live with that because my house is up on a hill and at† least I can get to my house.
Don Williams:† Itís not that we donít want to help, the problem is the only person whoís got jurisdiction is a judge. Thatís the problem, itís a civil issue. We canít do anything, itís not that whether we want to or not we just canít. Isnít that right, Mr. Attorney?
Mr. Dotson: I donít believe anybody canít, I believe that you know this gentleman talked to Guy Cornell and he said he donít have a problem putting it there, Guy Cornell, Jr. He donít have a problem you know with the County putting one there, I just donít think the Countyís going to put one there.
Don Williams:† Thatís true, as far as I know.
David Zengler: I donít know how we could on private property.
Mr. Dotson: I pay my taxes like everybody else it canít cost too much to go up there and put a culvert in.
Phil Baxter: We canít do it, itís private property.
Mr. Dotson: Mr. Cornell just said you all could do it.
Phil Baxter: No, he said you could do it.
Bobby: He did not say that the County would do it, he saidÖfirst of all letís get back to the issue of where he wanted to dig it out and lower the level in the lake to begin with. But if a culvertís put in there he doesnít know what elevation it needs to be put at and if it would affect his lease holder, how it would affect them and how it would affect everyone on that lake.
Mr. Dotson: Now he knows itís not going to affect them because they want to drain half that lake anyway. The lease holder wants to drain half that lake anyway and put that dam up there where we can see it. He wants to turn a 57 acre lake into a 30-acre lake. He wants to put a dam across his property and drain it, so he knows itís not going to affect the lease holder, besides that lease has got to be up.
Bobby: I donít know, I just know what he told me on meeting with him. But you still have everyone who lives along and owns property along that lake would have to agree on some kind of level.
Mr. Dotson: Yeah, and the only thing is Iím the lowest
person, the only person itís affecting right now is me. Next year it might
affect my neighbor, the year after that it might affect his neighbor the year
after that of course there is going to be some people dead on
Bobby: No, itís a finger that comes through at the berm itself.
Mr. Dotson: Right, so you say the coal mine dug that lake 100 foot wide and all of a sudden, well we got a little tiny ___?___ so weíre just going to dig it 20 foot wide right here all the way to and then weíre going to stop. That was a spillway. He might not know that it was dammed up, he might think the coal mine did it and of course his fatherís deceased, I understand that. But his father did that. His father did that because the coal mine wouldnít sell him that property. He didnít want anybody on the other side of the lake where he owns property so he did that to flood that road and of course in the process itís flooding me out.
Nova Conner:† Bobby, in terms of the Storm Water, I mean does that not give usÖ
Bobby: This is a large stripper pit, I donít know how it affects Storm Water Management and itís not really in ourÖ..
Nova Conner: Itís not in aÖ.ok
Mr. Dotson: Itís what I said, right? Okay thanks for you all help.
Phil Baxter: Motion to adjourn?
Don Williams:† So moved
Jim Niemeyer: Second
Motion was made and seconded. Motion passed 4-0.