MINUTES
APRIL 9, 2008
2:30 P.M.
The Warrick County Drainage Board met in regular session with President Phillip H. Baxter presiding, also in attendance were Nova Conner, Vice-President; Don Williams, Secretary, James E. Niemeyer, Surveyor and David K. Zengler, Attorney for Board.
Also in attendance was Sean M. Owen, Deputy Surveyor.
Those present in the audience were Sarah Evans, Sharon Austin, Scott Dotson, Bill Bivins and Ron Backner.
APPROVAL OF
MINUTES:
Phil Baxter:
Don Williams: Move to approve.
Nova Conner: Second
Motion was made and seconded to approve minutes. Motion carried 3-0.
HILL VIEW
SUBDIVISION DRAINAGE PLANS:
Phil Baxter: We have drainage plans for Hill View Subdivision.
Bill Bivins: Bill Bivins, Engineer. This is two lots proposed subdivision one existing house and one new large lot with access through the cul-de-sac there on Le
nn Road. I ran the drainage calculations and it requires a retention basin of 374 cubic yards which is shown on the southeast corner of the property. There was discussion last month about drainage and I have a little map here I would like show you if I could what they’re drainage problem is out there. This is the subject property there are no pipes or ditches on this property, this property or this property. Now we’re going downhill, here’s the drainage ditch this property has a 12-inch pipe in the drive-way, this property has 10, this last property has 8. So water is normally going to run out in the street. This property right here is approximately two feet lower than the existing street, so water is going to collect on him. We’re proposing to put a berm in here to catch the water and store it and release it in the swale back behind the buildings there.
Don Williams: Where does that end up Mr. Bivins?
Bill Bivins: It ends up….this ditch goes all the way through here. They’ve got a big enough pipe here, the County has a big enough pipe.
Nova Conner: So where did you say at the end it’s going to run, show me again.
Bill Bivins: Okay, there’s an existing ditch and it goes back behind, the swales back here into the existing ditch that goes through there. And of course we’re releasing it at the same rate that it is running off now with the retention in there. Like I say it’s such a small area you can see this big lake here, I actually calculated considering all this water going this way. I calculated my figures and only came to a 374 cubic retention that we had to have.
Don Williams: How much of it is draining into that lake?
Bill Bivins: I’d say…well look at the contours here, Don and it’s probably somewhere in about like this. Probably about a fourth of the existing actually goes into that lake.
Don Williams: That’s still headed south?
Bill Bivins: Yes
Nova Conner: So there’s never been any really water issues behind there at all where it’s going down the swales into the…..you’ve never had any type of…..
Bill Bivins: No, like I said the problem is as I see it and I met with Mr. Niemeyer and we looked at it. There is no ditches here and there’s no pipes in any of these drive-ways.
Don Williams: So to correct that we almost need to…..
Bill Bivins: Need to ditch and put pipes in there and these pipes need to be sized properly.
Don Williams: Do
they run down along the front of the drive or where those pipes actually run. I
know I’m asking you questions that may not be, they are right along
Bill Bivins: They are probably 10 feet off the asphalt would be my guess.
(Mr. Bivins is not on a microphone so some of his conversation is very hard to decipher and may not be accurate)
Phil Baxter: Bill, you’re showing a swale here, did you say a berm?
Bill Bivins: Well, a swale to catch the water to keep it from running there and direct it all to the retention basin.
Nova Conner: So even if we do that we still I mean those residents it doesn’t solve the problem that they are having?
Bill Bivins: No
Don Williams: Well, have we got anything from those folks out there concerning any drainage problems? (someone in the audience said everybody) Okay, now I know who you are.
Bobby Howard: The back yard swales, you’re saying that those will function and take the water down to the ditch?
Mr. Bivins answer was not decipherable because members of the Board were also talking and Mr. Bivins was not on a microphone. He did state that this property was existing like that when the gentleman bought it and that he has not done anything to it to cause this.
Don Williams: What would it take to take care of that drain?
Bobby Howard: Well, to keep the water from coming across the street onto the south end side we’d have to ditch through how many drive-ways are there?
Bill Bivins: six
A lady in the audience wants to be explained about Mr. Bivins plans and how they would be affected.
Bobby Howard: By looking at what we’re talking about here, do you want me to explain the situation? He is looking at putting in a retention basin for his lot to limit the developed flow that would come down off of the hillside and make the water come down to the backyard behind Mr. Beckner’s house and run down that way back to the ditch and through to the ditch under Lenn Lane. Now part of the water problem that was determined out there was the homes on the north side of the road that ditch doesn’t flow properly down to the large drain under Lenn Lane, that those culverts would also need to be repaired or replaced and that ditching would need to be done all the way from the cul-de-sac to the largest ditch underneath Lenn Lane.
A lady in the audience asked if this would be done at the County’s expense.
Don Williams: If it’s like most projects the county would put the pipe in and with the new Stormwater management I’m just talking as one member but it could be taken on as a project probably the only thing is that the property owners would be out would be where everybody has an equal size pipe, am I correct there Bobby?
Bobby: Normally driveway culverts would be…you would supply the cost for the driveway culvert replacement for the pipe itself. Your side is not affected it’s the north side of the road. Your driveway culverts are your access points to the right of way and you actually maintain your own driveway culverts. So if they would need to be replaced for any reason it’s usually the property owner that is responsible for the costs of the driveway culverts. The county is offering to do the installation for you and the ditching.
A gentleman in the audience was saying something about this didn’t happen until they took some piles out and mowed the hill down.
Bobby: Well, the driveway culverts showed that a problem existed in a heavy rain because they are all undersized for even a 25 year storm event.
The gentleman stated that they had never had this problem before.
Bobby: And he is redirecting some of this water to come back down the south hold it in a basin and release it slowly, so that it doesn’t rush down off the hill. That’s what he’s proposing at this time.
Bill Bivins: Actually what we’re going to do is to on our overflow pipe will actually be a perforated pipe to let the water leak out slowly. There is enough to retention in there to store twice as much water as we’re required to.
Bobby: So you’re oversized your basin.
Bill Bivins: Yes
Don Williams: How much did you make it?
Bill: I think it came out to around 800.
Don Williams: So you’re looking at instead of a fifty year a hundred year.
Bill: Yes
Nova Conner: And what was he saying in terms of it didn’t start happening until when?
Can you come forward and tell us that, I’d like for you to tell me about that.
Ron Backner: Ron Backner 7411 Lenn Lane, when they went up there I don’t know before when whoever owned that property up there built a pole barn up there, ok I don’t know if they had a permit to do that or not ok, and then whatever happened it changed hands and they went up there and cut all that or bulldozed that flat or cut all that hay out of there and then it started cause they started driving up in there putting businesses up in there. They started putting manure and big bricks and then it started when it rained, it just washed my driveway away, the neighbors driveway away……
Bobby: Ok, what he’s saying part of that fix would be is to….they will keep that water from coming to your driveway, it will come around the back end through released at a slower rate.
Mr. Backner: At the back of my place?
Bobby: Right
Mr. Backner: Well, right now it comes down there now.
Bobby: Right, but it comes through your driveway.
Mr. Backner: No, it comes through the yard, Mr. Niemeyer was there he seen it.
Jim Niemeyer: Part of the problem out there is behind his place its sheet flow down the hill but he’s also I think has another problem, it appears that his neighbor has installed a sump pump to drain his basement and that water comes out right on the back of his lot there on the property line.
Mr. Backner: I’m flooded out inside my house now.
Bobby: Is his neighbor Bill’s client?
Mr. Backner: Yes
Bill Bivins: We can direct that sump pump and pump it into that retention basin if that’s a concern.
Mr. Backner: You know you guys can say what you want but water is water and I don’t believe any of it, you know what I mean. I think you build up there your going to get more water coming down that hill and unless he retains that water west of me all of it, it’s coming into my yard, okay and I’ve already put a wall up there. I’ve got pictures now where they put logs (?) up there all that water is coming in my yard and in my house and it’s not going to get any better by building up there, so they end up driving through there and putting more roads in there whatever they’re going to do up there.
Bobby: Basically it will be allowed one access drive off the road to come into one residence.
Mr. Backner: How big is this residence?
Mr. Bivins: I can’t answer that until the lot is sold but you wouldn’t think anyone would build a house that would exceed what is in the neighborhood.
Mr. Backner: Because I know that property, somebody bought that property north of us and I don’t know who bought that I think it was state farm guy and I think they’re trying to up through there and come around the back side.
Bill Bivins: We’re not involved with that. (Bill still isn’t on a microphone and what he is saying is mostly inaudible)
Mr. Backner: I’m just telling you I’m getting flooded, neighbors below me are getting flooded out ok, the guy next to me has his garage flooded out, that’s how much water comes down off the hill and we never had that problem until they got rid of all the grass.
Bill Bivins: There’s grass up there.
Mr. Backner: This grass used to be this high. (?) It was hay and it held it up there, we never had any problem and you can’t tell me any different, I live there.
Phil Baxter: Any questions?
Bill Bivins: We are designing ????? required to slow the water down. ( something about a retention basin)
Don Williams: How big is the lot? 1.8?
Bill Bivins: Yes
A lady in the audience asked where would that water drain into our backyards?
Bill Bivins: There’s a easement along all the backyards.
Lady: There is a main sewer line that goes down that easement and so you would have water draining?
Mr. Bivins: It would go down to the ditch that takes care of the whole subdivision.
Lady: So could we all have back gardens and everything and your saying it won’t flood us out?
Bill: We’re not going to be releasing any more water than you’re getting now but that’s the thing it’s designed to let the water release the same as it’s doing now.
Don Williams: It should be slower shouldn’t it?
Bill: Yes
Nova Conner: I think that’s how because I do see some of the retention ponds that don’t work. We look at them and think that’s the answer and then they don’t.
Bill: Well, if I put this swale in there it will be directing all the water away from the street and that’s really where everybody’s front yard is flooding down there now because of that.
Don Williams: So the drive going in there would there be a swale that would go over it, is that what you’re saying?
Bill: What we’ll do is we’ll have a pipe that will……..
Don Williams: will take it through it?
Bobby: Is currently the water running from across the road because the pipes are too small and flowing to their front yards to their backyards?
Bill: This gentleman’s problem is Bobby, is that the street is about 2-3 feet higher than his house because there is no ditch there and any water that runs off the road is going to run directly to his house.
Jim Niemeyer: He has a retaining wall in the back of his house to keep the water from going in.
Nova Conner: It’s not working?
Jim Niemeyer: No
Bill was saying something to the effect that there was nothing there to keep the water from running toward his house. It looked like to me these other pipes down here were carrying the water on the south side from him, but the north side definitely all this water that’s…there’s no ditches up there and probably some of it in the heavy rain did (inaudible) I didn’t see the property before there was no grading of any kind that had been done up there, he may have mowed the weeds down but as far as doing any dozing or anything up there to create a problem nothing was done up there ------------except for cleaning up the place.
Lady: (no name) I live on lot number 15. Mr. Meyer bought the property knowing it was landlocked and that he could not build on it, so he’s now looking to you to more or less bail him out. Mr. Meyer’s owns the property on lot 11 but does not live in the subdivision because he has turned it into a rental property, as it is it seems that he has a hard time keeping the property maintained and rented. The property is currently for rent and has been for several months. Hill View is a cul-de-sac subdivision with 20 building lots. The subdivision covenant which I acknowledged did expire in 1999 indicated that a residential building lot used herein shall consist of a minimum of 1 residential lot or tract that under no circumstances may any residence be erected, constructed, altered, placed or permitted to remain on less than one full lot as subdivided according to the recorded plat of the subdivision. As you know, Mr. Myers wants to take part of lot 11 to create a frontage in order to build on some property behind lot 11 thus opening up the cul-de-sac. When the covenant was in effect it took ¾ of the property owners to modify any provisions, in other words if ¼ or 5 lot owners objected then the proposed modifications would not be approved. When the covenant was in effect the lot owners had some say in decision making responsibilities regarding any modifications that would affect the neighborhood and properties, since the covenant has expired it appears that we as property owners no longer have any protection only two adjacent property owners were even notified of these hearings and you as members of the Area Plan Commission who do not live in our subdivision will be making the decision that will affect our lives and properties. In making that decision I hope you will at least listen to the voice of the subdivision property owners who are voicing concerns about potential drainage problems. What the potential building site will eventually be is for what the long term ramifications might be if the cul-de-sac is opened up thereby potentially giving other landlocked property behind lot 11 access. At the last hearing we had six lot owners who did object which is more than the ¼ that would have been required under the covenant. I do not see that Mr. Meyer’s proposal will enhance the neighborhood or my property value, but will only enhance Mr. Meyer’s pocket book.
Bill Bivins: As she stated the restrictions have expired on this or we would not be here if the restrictions were in place we would not be here and we did notify everyone that we are required to notify on this which is the adjacent landowners.
Nova Conner: So you’re building one home and you don’t know what it’s going to look like or size or anything?
Bill Bivins: No
Lady: It just seems like a lot of expense and trouble for one home and it affects a lot of our lives and our property.
Bill Bivins: We are offering a solution for part of the drainage problems if you know, if we don’t do anything the drainage is not going to change out there. We’re offering a solution to help the drainage.
Phil Baxter: Any other questions?
Don Williams: Will the berm or the swale, what was your name again sir?
Gerald Kirsoski
Don Williams: Because he says he’s getting water from here. Will that swale start….
Bill Bivins: We’ll start at the property line and direct everything that way, that’s the way I’ve got it calculated.
Don Williams: Because
you know if the swale is built properly and the retention basin they’ll have
less water. The other thing that needs to be done is probably
Jim Niemeyer: It really the day we had one of those large rains, I was out there two consecutive days and I took pictures and the water was really coming down that street and it was flooding like Bill said from this side over across the road. It was really bad, none of the culverts are open and there’s hardly any semblance of a ditch out there either.
Phil Baxter: The culverts are all blocked up?
Jim Niemeyer: Yes
Don Williams: When we do this I think all the property owners have to agree to the project if the storm water management….
Bobby: Actually for the storm water management to do…..it’s in road right-of-way.
Don Williams: Oh it’s in road right of way, so it won’t be a problem we could just do it and it would take the water away from their houses, then at least it should get away a lot faster. Because I’m concerned, I understand their concern cause we’ve had all the flooding and water we want. If that swale was built down along that east side of the border there and it’s piped under the roadway going in off the cul-de-sac it should…..
My only concern is coming down along the back of those properties what is built in the drainage way, is there anything in there that’s going to slow that water down.
Bill Bivins: There’s a few trees in there but it’s nothing that’s…..it was designed for the drainage.
Bobby: If this would be approved we’d also want to put a stipulation in there about the self pump drain draining to…. Someone answered yes
There was discussion between the board most of it not audible discussing the plan then Don Williams asked what could be done to keep the water off his property? This is Mr. Backner’s place here.
Bill Bivins: He’s got a drain right here, what he needs perhaps is to put a little ditch with a swale in there you know to allow that water to keep it from running toward his house.
There was other discussion between Board members with discussion about natural drainage that was not all picked up.
Mrs. Kristenski: I’m Mrs. Kristenski, we don’t have any ditches behind our houses, our sewers are back there and they go down real far believe me because we had to dig one up and it was like 9-foot down. But we don’t have any drainage ditches back there. That property belongs to another person directly behind us it was sold and it’s just laying with nobody…somebody owns it, C. Larry Rhodes owns it but I don’t think he has an access road on Lenn Lane so he’s unable to do much with it, I don’t think, that’s what they say.
Bobby: What’s your address?
Mrs. Kristenske:
Bobby: We’re talking about the ditches on the south side of
Don Williams: So the water coming in the back side is coming from the hill it’s not coming from this ____?___ area?
Mrs. Kristenski: Yes, well we still get water too. Our yard almost dried up and now its raining again. My grandson’s are very upset as they can’t ride their cars in there.
Bill Bivins: (not on microphone) Mr. Howard suggest that we add a stipulation is that we will pump the sump pump into the retention basin which is going to be right there.
Don Williams: What sump pump?
Bill Bivins: The sump pump on his existing property which is….
Phil Baxter: The one they brought up a while ago.
Bill Bivins: It actually pumps out the back yard but we can ____?____ it to the retention basin.
Jim Niemeyer: It’s very wet.
Don Williams: Mr. Meyer
Bill Bivins: Yes it just runs in his back yard.
Don Williams: You’ll have to get an agreement with him to do that won’t you?
Bill described that Mr. Meyer owned the house.
Don Williams: I think it will work providing we do that project.
A lady in the audience said something about the south side and sewers and Don answered that they understand that it’s what they call a natural drainage where the water flows, it’s not a ditch.
She then asked if they were going to be doing work in their backyards? She was wondering how they would get access to it.
Bill Bivins answered no, but that it is a public utility easement but they will not be in it.
Lady: Okay, there is a public utility easement behind our properties but there is ……like there is a main sewer line that runs between my property and the next property but the utility company never took an easement when they put that big sewer in.
Jim Niemeyer: Could I ask a question for edification how old are the homes out there?
There were different answers but they said on the average about 30 to 36 years. They stated that they were built before almost all the other subdivisions they were one of the first ones in that area.
The Board was in a discussion but it was inaudible.
Don Williams: How many of you live on the north side of the road? This is just a question and I realize it would be a kind of frivolous question because you don’t know the minds of your neighbors, if the County under our Department of Storm Water Management which isn’t this Board but it’s the same ( someone in the audience stated they couldn’t hear)The question is under the Department of Storm Water Management now the Drainage Board we could not come on private property and take care of your flooding problem. But the DSWM which just came into place, we can take care of helping people out that are having drainage problems and what my question would be to you is do you believe that…I don’t know how well you know your neighbors but would they be open to the County coming in there and re-piping those drives with the correct size pipe to get the water off that road quicker and get your properties drained quicker?
Some one asked, Do you mean in front?
Don Williams: Yes
They answered that they didn’t think anyone would have a problem but I can’t speak for them, but I wouldn’t have a problem. But I can’t speak for everybody.
Don Williams: I wasn’t asking you to sir I was just wondering what your thought was.
Nova Conner: Well, I think Jim should share the concern here, the one that you just shared with me about the…right here, I think you need to share that with the Board.
Jim Niemeyer: Yeah, well, we need to and I think they already have that under advisement is re-direct that sump pump in………
Nova Conner: Is that what you were saying?
Don Williams: Back into the lake.
Nova Conner: So it wouldn’t drain directly onto his property. That would help the issue.
Bill Bivins was speaking the whole time but with other conversations and he was not on a microphone it was inaudible.
Some one I think Mr. Backner, asked, Now where they planning on putting the water now?
Jim Niemeyer: Direct it from the outlet, you know that you showed me by the fence there and they will take that sump pump affluent and put it into the detention pond. So it won’t be coming out onto your property any longer.
Someone not on the microphone, still the same person asked something about the detention pond but he was mostly inaudible.
Bobby: That will come back through your back yard. Well, it will come through at a slower rate than what it does now.
Something was said about there not being a ditch back there for it to flow.
Bill Bivins: It’s all downhill back through there.
The audience kept asking questions but they were inaudible.
Bobby: No, I mean that’s where the water flows naturally now from the hill top and all he’s doing is releasing it slower through the same area.
Mr. Backne (?)r keeps talking and explaining but it is also inaudible.
Phil Baxter: Okay, we’ve got to move on here. What’s the wishes of the Board?
Mr. Backner (?) is still talking about never having this problem and Bill Bivins keeps answering but it is also all inaudible.
Someone else starts talking also but they read that this meeting was supposed to be a 6:00 tomorrow.
Don Williams: Now that’s the County Council.
Phil Baxter: Any more questions?
Don Williams: No, I agree with Mr. Backner that it’s just a guess but by the engineering designs there should be less water instead of more by building that swale down through there and putting everything into that lake. It should take care of a lot of your problems because the water should be coming at you slower when they do this not faster. That lake should hold it and instead of just coming down off that hill and your saying we won’t know until we see and I understand.
Mr. Backner stated something about east of the lake where it’s coming down.
Bobby: It will be an improvement over what it is today.
Don Williams: I think that’s safe, how big of an improvement that’s the only question.
Someone in the audience said something about building something up and letting the water run to the people behind them (there was laughter)
Don Williams: If you get anything in that lake over build not underbuild. Okay I mean we don’t have a whole lot of choice because of the qualifications of the law that’s in place and you know that too, but you know what our concerns are and you might talk to Mr. Meyer about the possibility of having a nice fishing lake there and building it even bigger. (someone said something about a lake) Okay, you’re talking about over on the northwest side.
Phil Baxter: We have to move on what are the wishes of the Board?
Don Williams: I hesitate but I think they are well in line with the statute and what do they call that triditiary duty whatever it is we have to obey our own laws but I would make a motion to approve the drainage plans with the fact that the house here, Mr. Meyer that that sump pump goes directly to the lake if he is willing to do that and that the berm on the east side of the property starts at the very northern part of the property and goes all the way down to the lake, that way it keeps the water out of that cul-de-sac and we don’t have our Storm Water Management Board meeting open do we? We didn’t open them both like we usually do (David Zengler answered we do not) and I’ll just wait but along with that I would like to see us take and I think we have the money to do it, to take and do a project on the north side there to clear the water out of the road so they do get a heavy rain much quicker. So my motion is that we approve providing the lake is…he said he’s designing it at a 100 year so at a 100 year with the sump pump going to it and that would be my motion.
Jim Niemeyer: Second
Don Williams: You’re not on this Board.
Phil Baxter: I’ll second it, all in favor?
Motion was made and seconded with 2 ayes and 1 nay from Commissioner Conner. Motion carried 2-1.
Phil Baxter: Any other business before the Drainage Board?
DEPARTMENT OF STORM WATER MANAGEMENT:
STORM WATER SEWER UTILITY RATE:
Phil Baxter: We will now open Department of Storm Water Management. First on the agenda is, it’s a Public Hearing, so we’ll recess Storm Water Management and open Public Hearing for Ordinance submitting Storm Water Sewer Utility Rate, is that the way it was advertised?
Bobby: Yes, I think I believe you have all read the ordinance, the rate changes.
Don Williams: What is the ordinance number on that? 2008-1? I move that we approve Ordinance 2008-1.
Bobby: Do we need to read the title?
Don Williams: Yes, the title go ahead and read the title.
David Zengler: We’re actually having a Public Hearing.
Don Williams: Oh, Okay we don’t do any motions then we’ll do it later. I’m sorry.
Public Hearing is open then?
Phil Baxter: Any comments on the ordinance?
Don Williams: You have the title of the ordinance? I’ll read it, the title of the ordinance is Ordinance by the Board of Directors of the Department of Storm Water Management Warrick County amending Storm Water Utility Rates. Actually we’re lowering the rates. That’s all I have to say, I think I made the proposal originally for those reduction rates so we’ll need to go through those unless……
Phil Baxter: I think we all know them.
David: I would say if there is no other public comment then we could close the Public Meeting and then you can proceed with the ordinance.
Nova Conner: That’s just on this number 1, he was thinking that………
David: This is only on the ordinance we’re amending.
Phil Baxter: Okay, we’ll close the Public Hearing and reopen the Storm Water Management Meeting. Do we have a motion on the ordinance?
Don Williams: Yes, I would move that we approve Ordinance 2008-1
Nova Conner: Second
Motion was made and seconded to approve ordinance. Motion passed 4-0.
Bobby: David could you go ahead and walk us through the procedures.
David Zengler: Yes, I think Mr. Howard will bring that up in your Commissioners meeting for you to approve and then assuming the Commissioners approve it, it would go to the County Council, so we need to get that on their agenda.
Bobby: I will have that on their next months agenda for review.
Phil Baxter: Okay, we’ve got the minutes from March 12, 2008.
Nova Conner: I make a motion that the minutes are approved.
Don Williams: Second
Motion was made and seconded to approve minutes. Motion passed 4-0.
USER FEE
Bobby: Okay, quickly I have a user fee status update. I talked with Doug Baldesari of Umbaugh & Associates and they have corrected their data base based on the information that I gave them and our new calculated annual budget for the Storm Water Department would be 1 million 2 hundred thirty three thousand five hundred eighty four dollars
($1,233,584.00) annually that will come into installments of six hundred sixteen thousand seven hundred ninety two dollars ($616,792.00) in order to do the storm water projects. So I have sent the spread sheets over to the Auditor’s Office to send to Manitron to get them in place and that is just a quick update. I’ll know more about that hopefully later this week.
PROPOSAL ON WEBSITE INPLEMENTATION
Bobby: The next item I have is a proposal on our website
implementation, I have forwarded a copy of the agreement earlier to Mr. Zengler
earlier today so I hope he’s had time to review it but I didn’t know if he had
any comments or concerns but this would be a website with up to ten (10) pages
of content. It’s kind of based on
David Zengler: Considering the amount we’re talking about I think this contract is fine, I think obviously if we were talking about adding some zero’s to the end I would prefer the project to be a little bit different but I think for this project this is fine.
Phil Baxter Have a motion?
Don Williams: I move we approve the website proposal.
Nova Conner: Second
Motion was made and seconded to approve proposal. Motion carried 4-0.
CITIZENS COMPLAINTS
Bobby: I believe we have Sara Evans from
Sara Evans: Like he said I live in Tanglewood Subdivision on
It was early and before you can say record rainfall, we don’t have to have record rainfall for me to flood. These are pictures, my house is the one to the left with the sandbags.
Don Williams: Are these all the same?
Ms. Evans: Sort of
Nova Conner: Is this at the end of the cul-de-sac?
Ms. Evans. Yes, I’m at the end of the cul-de-sac. They did
widen the ditch, it’s not widened all the way down. So I want to show you, this
was pictures of the last rainfall, these are pictures of 1996 and 97 as you can
tell even though the ditch has been widened they say I still get flooded in the
cul-de-sac. I don’t see any difference from 96, 97 to 2008. I would like to
read from the minutes of a Commissioners Meeting at the top it says February
28, 1999, I believe it was 2000. David Rector agreed when I was speaking that I
have a problem down there. At 7: 35 a.m. on March 13, 1997 I talked with
highway garage foreman Jack Gore he informed me and I am quoting from the
minutes. “He informed me that the pipe in
Jim Niemeyer: Didn’t measure it but it didn’t go to 17-feet because there is no room to go.
Ms. Evans: Okay, you didn’t measure so we don’t know, is it 6-feet it was 5 you told me did it just go to 6?
Jim Niemeyer: It’s approximately 7-foot wide.
Don Williams: Is that the bottom or the top?
Jim Niemeyer: Bottom
Ms. Evans: He’s at the bottom, I’m quoting, he says the bottom so but it was supposed to, you told me it needed to be 17-feet wide and you only made it 7. Okay now if you only made it 7 did you go all the way downstream at 7?
Jim Niemeyer: There are places we couldn’t make it.
Ms. Evans: No no
Nova Conner: You couldn’t due to the……..
Jim’s answer was inaudible because Ms. Evans kept talking.
Ms. Evans: This is just the other day and you can tell that they still did not widen it.
Don Williams: Legal drain?
Jim Niemeyer: Yes
Nova Conner: And you’re saying you can’t….
Don Williams: Why can’t you go wider?
Jim Niemeyer: It’s not all 75-feet wide, the easement.
Don Williams: Why isn’t it, it’s supposed to be 75-feet on both sides of the ditch.
Jim Niemeyer: I don’t know why that happened but….
Don Williams: How wide is it?
Jim Niemeyer: In spots it’s 40-feet in spots it’s 75-feet.
Don Williams: But it’s a minimum of 40-feet on both sides of that ditch?
Jim Niemeyer: We went as far as we could go on the north side without…….
Nova Conner: Without getting onto their property?
Bill Bivins: May I help you, when Tanglewood Subdivision was developed they only put a 40-foot easement in there for the total ditch. (the rest of what Mr. Bivins said was inaudible because again he was not on a microphone)
Ms. Evans: So it’s 40, I’m sorry but normally you said it’s supposed to be 75-feet.
Bill Bivins: Now I’m talking about total normally it’s going to be 75-feet from the top of the bank but the whole thing is only 40-feet.
Don Williams: You’re talking about from one side out, the other side out is 40-feet.
Bill Bivins: There’s a 40-foot easement in there, yes.
Ms. Evans: Okay, but there’s not 40-feet down…….
Don Williams: Period? For a legal drain?
Bobby: When did that get established as a legal drain, cause it originally had a 40-foot drainage easement and then it became a legal drain later, if I recall.
Jim Niemeyer: If I have to go in there and pull that out, out of the files.
Bobby: Well, if it became a legal drain later it would have had the 75-foot right of entry attached or not?
David Zengler: By statute I think it….if it’s a legal drain……unless the ordinance…yeah.
Bill Bivins: They have never been able to find where it was ever established as a legal drain, we’ve researched this.
Ms. Evans: And that means?
Don Williams: That means it’s a bigger problem.
Ms. Evans: It’s been a problem since…those pictures are dated 1996-97 and it’s still flooding in 2008 and they’re still building. I’d like Mr. Hampton has some…to explain about the other part.
Mike Hampton: I’m Mike Hampton I live at
He also showed pictures.
All this water that’s coming down through the houses is going under the street, the ground is eroding and the street is sinking and eventually its going to cave in. It’s being washed away. The ground is eroding underneath the street and you can see the street cracking, its dropping down so something has to be done there. We’ve lived there 22 years and the water is coming from behind the house out of the fields and the woods you know I mean it’s just a natural drain. Something needs to be done behind all of our properties and I don’t know how that’s going to happen.
Don Williams: Is there holes in it? What street is that?
Mr. Hampton:
Bobby: I’ve looked into this and I don’t know that there’s a place to re-direct the water from where it naturally drains down through there but we could look at placing an inlet and area drain behind the curb to tie in with the storm sewer system to help that water get away and increase the size of the pipe there at the end of the cul-de-sac.
Mr. Hampton: Right there in front of my house I think there’s an 8-inch pipe that’s supposed to catch all that water, that’s a joke it may as well not be there.
Bobby: I think it’s 12-inch pipe that runs from your house that hits the inlets and the intersection and then runs down to the inlets down by Ms. Evans house. Then that runs down to the legal drain. If it was a legal drain.
Nova Conner: Let me make sure I understand that so it’s coming down the side of the house, I mean…
Bobby: It comes out of the woods behind his house and goes down between his house and his neighbor and then it pours out over the street and under the street. It’s eroding under the street there, there’s a street drain at that location and when the water backs up in the drainage ditch these drains aren’t functioning at all and they were only designed for a 25-year storm event to begin with. But to help eliminate some of this issue with the flooding in the street would be talking about replacing the pipe in the cul-de-sac, giving the larger structure in there a 24-inch pipe putting in a swale over the pipe. I talked myself and Jack Gore met Ms. Evans at her house during one of the rain events and that was discussed with her and I think she would be open to that as far as replacing the structure and putting in the swale. Then we would be adding an inlet into the system at the beginning, really we can’t…… when the ditch is up these pipes are going to hold water there’s not a lot we can do there. But we can keep the street from flooding, when the ditch is not full the street currently floods, we can eliminate that situation to keep the water 4 to 6 inches in the cul-de-sac instead of two feet or better that she’s been experiencing by adding a drainage structure at the cul-de-sac with a swale over the top to take the surface water for when the pipes become full from the back water from the ditch. That there would be a surface flow to ensure that street would stay 4 to 6 inches of standing water instead of 2-3 feet.
Ms. Evans: But Bobby in some of those pictures it shows when the cul-de-sac fills up because the pipe is too small, too low when the ditch fills up above this pipe that’s when the cul-de-sac will not flow and the two houses, my house and the next house in those pictures once it gets high enough it’s going to flow to that ditch anyway so if we could put a swale there, I mean it’s already going between the two houses.
Bobby: But it’s got to get 2-3 feet before it will do that, when we put a new pipe and a new swale in we can keep it to where the water would only be 6 inches of water maximum in the cul-de-sac as long as the ditch isn’t full. When the ditch is full then you’re going to have water.
Ms. Evans: The ditch gets over the bank now, Mr. Niemeyer said it was flowing but he was I don’t think there was hardly any water in the cul-de-sac when you were there.
Bobby: The day I was there the ditch was not out of its bank yet and we had 2 feet of water in the cul-de-sac. The plan that I discussed will eliminate that 2 feet of water in the cul-de-sac when the ditch is not full. But this does not take care of the situation when the ditch is full.
Ms. Evans: Okay, and there’s no way you can widen that down….
Bobby: That’s through the Drainage Board that we would have to look at….
Don Williams: Now is that legal or not?
Nova Conner: That’s what I was going to say I thought you said it wasn’t.
Don Williams: You’re getting us confused, is it legal or not? If it’s a legal drain the Drainage Board will take care of it, if it’s not the Storm Water Board will take care of it.
Bobby: How can you determine that Bobby if it’s legal?
Bobby: That would be through Jim’s office.
Jim Niemeyer: We have to go through and do a record search. I have some files but there are other drains that we don’t have records on and that means I think we need to start through the courthouse.
Bobby: It could be made a legal drain.
Don Williams: Well, I don’t know that we necessarily need to make it a legal drain because now that we have a Storm Water Department it can be done through that.
Bobby: It becomes a legal drain at a point when….
Don Williams: Later on?
Bobby: Yes, just maybe a thousand feet down, I know it for sure it’s a legal drain there. So it’s just….
Don Williams: So I guess the question is, is we can’t get the required turf on either side of the ditch to widen and deepen as we want then it’s of no real value to make it a legal drain.
Bobby: Well there’s structures currently in the way that I’m aware of, there’s a few utilities and maybe a retention or a retaining wall.
Nova Conner: So you think it can be widened?
Don Williams: Well that;s…may not happen.
Bobby: The area is there, the land is there its acquiring the land if that’s the problem we would need to acquire the land to widen the ditch if its not a legal drain.
Ms. Evans: Okay, he’s saying now….but behind me they want to build 18 homes that’s going to flow into that ditch so it’s not going to hold it if they build 18 homes on less than 5 acres behind me that will flow into that ditch and as I was reading in 2000 the gentleman said when you build more and more blacktop and more streets, so the ditch is going to get worse not better.
Bobby: Unless it’s widened.
Don Williams: Well there’s been problems in Tanglewood forever, I think it’s time that we…this is the first time in the history of the county with the establishment of the Storm Water Management Board that we can actually go in and take care of these kind of problems. So we need to study it and determine….
Phil Baxter: Sir, if you don’t mind
Don Williams: Yes we have to move on, but I just want to make a motion because I think we can talk until we’re blue in the face, but I move that Bobby that you look at this and if we need to have a water specialist to evaluate the solution out in Tanglewood, lets find out what it is, get some kind of a cost estimate together and I know it’s going to be a big project but I think we need to look at that. I mean this has been a problem for…historically. So for the first time we’ve got the full with to try and take care of these kind of problems so that’s my motion. Lets do an investigation see what it takes to fix the problem and then we’ll notify you when we get ready to address the problem and Bobby if we need to get a specialist in water then put an RPD together and lets get 2-3 people to bid on it and get the study done.
Nova Conner: Second.
Motion was made and seconded. Motion passed 4-0.
Don Williams: I have one other thing concerning out on Lenn Lane, I would like to make a motion that we meet with the homeowners on the north side of Lenn Lane and talk about the possibility of redoing that ditch and those pipes resizing those to a proper value to get that area to drain faster also as a Storm Water Management project.
Nova Conner: Second
Motion was made and seconded. Motion passed 4-0.
Bobby: Now you need to bring it up under your business, Mr. Dotson.
Nova Conner: If you want to come up.
Scott Dotson: My name is Scott Dotson and I live at 1255
(Some of what Mr. Dotson said is lost because a tape was changed instead of two tapes being put in at the start.)
They said no that’s the water table, your pond is the same size as that lake, that’s reclaimed land it flows through the rock that’s just the way it is. I said well that’s not the way it was when I bought it, it’s raised ten (10) feet, now something’s got to be done. So I started walking down the lake, it’s the first time I’ve walked down there as it’s not my property but I had to see what was going on. If you look at the end of this lake right here which is Mr. Cornell’s property you’ll see that natural water flow at the very top there has been dammed up, it’s dammed up and the water is even raising in the natural water flow. On the other side of that dam is about a 25-foot drop to a natural water flow spillway that goes down the Yankeetown highway. The water actually has between 3 and 5 feet to come up more before it goes over the top of his dam and when it does go over the top of that dam in I’d say 2 years and it takes that dam out, God help whoever is on that Yankeetown Highway cause it’s going to kill somebody. Somebody has got to put a culvert in there. Now I know Mr. Cornell Sr. is dead now, he died two years ago, his son inherited that land, I don’t even know if he knows what the problem is. But I can’t afford $10,000 a year to raise my drive-way two feet each year. I bought 12 acres……
Phil Baxter: Bobby, I think you met with Mr. Cornell yesterday.
Bobby: I met and walked the property yesterday with Mr. Cornell looking at that area and we didn’t find any culvert in there. That is not, you know like I talked to you on the phone that’s been there since before the year 2000.
Mr. Dotson: Did you not see that valley that goes down to
the highway, did you not see the culvert down on
Bobby: Actually that’s where the valley on the other side of that dam was where we..that you talked about the injunction against him for draining the pit. That’s where he started digging to drain the pit, he never got through…what he told me is that he never got that far to even drain that pit before the injunction against him he had to stop digging.
Mr. Dotson: But then he dammed it up…..So he dammed it up.
Bobby: The dam was there from an old mine road is what he stated to me.
Mr. Dotson: Okay, that is incorrect, if you would look at the top of that lake you would see where it comes to a point and then you see that long point with water in it, that is a spillway, that’s got to be natural spillway, there has to be a spillway there somewhere.
Bobby: Actually on a lot of these old pits they don’t have spillways and points.
Mr. Dotson: Okay, let me tell you this, whenever…..look at the Warrick County GIS, you look at the plat on the other side of the…you see where the lots are at on the other side of the lake there’s property that belongs to that subdivision and down that property line the coal mine whenever Mark Warren bought it he said I can’t get to that property. The coal mine said We’ll put you a road in there. They put a road in there, now why would they put a road in there that’s going to be 10-foot under water, they ain’t going to do that and I guarantee you there are culverts underneath that road. Mr. Cornell put a fence down that from what I understand, this is before I bought it…
Bobby: That fence is the property line through there and that’s what they placed….
Mr. Dotson: And did you see the road? How deep do you think..is it 10-15 feet under water?
Bobby: It’s over the top of that access point at this location, it’s been over the top several times.
Mr. Dotson: It’s been over there….the only time I’ve ever seen it was whenever I first bought the property, that’s the only time I’ve ever seen it. Slowly but surly that thing’s rising, now you said you went and looked at it?
Bobby: It’s about 3-feet from over the top in his berm (?) right now.
Mr. Dotson: Right,
Okay when it washes out what’s going to happen to
Bobby: Well, it’s going to take a bit to wash out the…..
Mr. Dotson: No, you’re right it’s going to wash me out first, it’s going to flood me out first.
Bobby: Well, basically I don’t know what this Board’s jurisdiction is on that, it’s property issue between…it’s on private property, it’s a private pit. I don’t know that we have any jurisdiction there.
Mr. Dotson: He told you he wasn’t going to put a culvert in?
Bobby: He said that he….he does not object to the idea of putting a culvert in there but he wants to make sure that he doesn’t have any issues with the lease holders that is leasing the property and the….he doesn’t know what elevation or the property owners would have to come to some type of agreement on what elevation that pipe would need to be at with that….it’s a mile and a half long pit and everybody along it would need to work together to…..
Mr. Dotson: Well, from what I can see by the rest of the people, it’s been doing this for years. My house will be under water before this will be resolved. I hate to sound like I’m upset but I’m a little upset. That water is not supposed to be that high, of course you know I guess my developer didn’t tell me that that was the water table. He said you’ve got an acre pond, I said great I’ve got a horse, he said which one of these lots do you want, he said this pond doesn’t dry up and as you can see, he was correct it don’t dry up.
Bobby: There’s no place for it to drain, it’s a bowl all the way around it.
Mr. Dotson: Okay, well they didn’t tell me that, so
somebody,
Don Williams: It
wasn’t the
Mr. Dotson: Well, somebody did it, but I mean I bought 12 acres with a 1 acre pond on it, I have 8 acres with at least 6 of that, I have six acres of that and then it goes to my neighbors.
Phil Baxter: Do we have any jurisdiction over this?
David Zengler: I don’t……
Mr. Dotson: You know what I’ve got a list of people I’ve talked to….Army Corp of Engineers, who has jurisdiction over this because nobody does. Division of Water, they don’t have jurisdiction over it, Soil and Water, they don’t, Department of Reclamation, they don’t have jurisdiction, Corp of Engineers don’t have jurisdiction and now Storm Water Management don’t have jurisdiction. Who’s got jurisdiction over this?
Bobby: The courts, that’s all I can tell you as far as I know it’s a civil issue.
Phil Baxter: When he started to put this pipe in before, who got the…..
Bobby: Cornell never tried to put a pipe in.
Mr. Dotson: Okay, you know did you look at that real good, did you see the 12-inch pipe that’s 3 inches above the dirt line on that road, that 12-inch pipe?
Bobby: In that berm? No, we could not find the pipe.
Mr. Dotson: Let’s go, I’ll show it to you, I’ll show you part of it anyway. Somebody put that road in there.
Bobby: And if there’s a pipe there that’s blocked then……..
Mr. Dotson: It’s not blocked, it’s this far underneath his
road that he’s dammed up. That’s a natural spillway for that lake, you just
don’t build a 57-acre lake without some kind of a spillway in it that is
30-feet above
Nova Conner: Do you know who did the injunction?
Mr. Dotson: No, whoever had the bond on the land whenever it was being mined which is out of Indianapolis, Mark Warren might know, he’s supposed to get me all that paper work but it’s going to be too late by then.
Nova Conner: So, there’s nothing as far as we can do…….
Don Williams: Nothing
Bobby: We can’t force a property owner to put a pipe in that I’m aware of.
Mr. Dotson: Well, he said he’d have no problem doing it, I mean, if he’ll let you guys put a pipe in please somebody put a pipe in.
Don Williams: This is strictly a civil issue, is it not, Dave?
David Zengler: Yes
Mr. Dotson: I’m not asking for it to go down 10-feet, give me 3-5 feet that’s all I’m asking, you know if I’ve got to live with 4 acres of water on the front of my property I can live with that because my house is up on a hill and at least I can get to my house.
Don Williams: It’s not that we don’t want to help, the problem is the only person who’s got jurisdiction is a judge. That’s the problem, it’s a civil issue. We can’t do anything, it’s not that whether we want to or not we just can’t. Isn’t that right, Mr. Attorney?
Mr. Dotson: I don’t believe anybody can’t, I believe that you know this gentleman talked to Guy Cornell and he said he don’t have a problem putting it there, Guy Cornell, Jr. He don’t have a problem you know with the County putting one there, I just don’t think the County’s going to put one there.
Don Williams: That’s true, as far as I know.
David Zengler: I don’t know how we could on private property.
Mr. Dotson: I pay my taxes like everybody else it can’t cost too much to go up there and put a culvert in.
Phil Baxter: We can’t do it, it’s private property.
Mr. Dotson: Mr. Cornell just said you all could do it.
Phil Baxter: No, he said you could do it.
Bobby: He did not say that the County would do it, he said…first of all let’s get back to the issue of where he wanted to dig it out and lower the level in the lake to begin with. But if a culvert’s put in there he doesn’t know what elevation it needs to be put at and if it would affect his lease holder, how it would affect them and how it would affect everyone on that lake.
Mr. Dotson: Now he knows it’s not going to affect them because they want to drain half that lake anyway. The lease holder wants to drain half that lake anyway and put that dam up there where we can see it. He wants to turn a 57 acre lake into a 30-acre lake. He wants to put a dam across his property and drain it, so he knows it’s not going to affect the lease holder, besides that lease has got to be up.
Bobby: I don’t know, I just know what he told me on meeting with him. But you still have everyone who lives along and owns property along that lake would have to agree on some kind of level.
Mr. Dotson: Yeah, and the only thing is I’m the lowest
person, the only person it’s affecting right now is me. Next year it might
affect my neighbor, the year after that it might affect his neighbor the year
after that of course there is going to be some people dead on
Bobby: No, it’s a finger that comes through at the berm itself.
Mr. Dotson: Right, so you say the coal mine dug that lake 100 foot wide and all of a sudden, well we got a little tiny ___?___ so we’re just going to dig it 20 foot wide right here all the way to and then we’re going to stop. That was a spillway. He might not know that it was dammed up, he might think the coal mine did it and of course his father’s deceased, I understand that. But his father did that. His father did that because the coal mine wouldn’t sell him that property. He didn’t want anybody on the other side of the lake where he owns property so he did that to flood that road and of course in the process it’s flooding me out.
Nova Conner: Bobby, in terms of the Storm Water, I mean does that not give us…
Bobby: This is a large stripper pit, I don’t know how it affects Storm Water Management and it’s not really in our…..
Nova Conner: It’s not in a….ok
Mr. Dotson: It’s what I said, right? Okay thanks for you all help.
Phil Baxter: Motion to adjourn?
Don Williams: So moved
Jim Niemeyer: Second
Motion was made and seconded. Motion passed 4-0.